(Posted in MIA, but just sharing it here too, encase someone ends up in the same situation) angry

Βεβαίωση Eγγραφής (Vevaiosi Engrafis) - Registration Certificate
EU nationals staying longer than 3 months in Greece must hold this Certificate which will be open dated and so there will be no need for it to be renewed, subject to ongoing status conditions.

And now my story...

I have been working in Greece since September 2009, I have recently started a new job, I gave in my required papers.. (which already took a lot of pain to get) to my new employer, those being:

• Photocopy of Passport
• IKA Paper (National Insurance Number 1)
• AMKA Paper (National Insurance Number 2)
• AFM Paper (Tax Number)
• Tenancy Agreement

So then the new company send off my details to the Greek Manpower Office (OAED) in order to say I have been employed, however.. Greek Manpower Office (OAED) refused my papers stating that I also need to show a "Registration Certificate" (Βεβαίωση Eγγραφής - Vevaiosi Engrafis) which I don't have.

The new company are quite confused by all this baring in mind the company is very popular classifieds newspaper, and have lots of staff (which are also from other EU countries)..

However after consulting with my Embassy I am informed that this "Registration Certificate" IS REQUIRED for ALL EU nationals living and working in Greece.

In order to obtain it I required the following (in fact I have yet to obtain it... this is why I write this message)..

• 3 Photos of myself
• Letter from Employer which has to be stamped by the KEP office + 3 photocopies
• To show my Passport + 3 Photocopies of my passport
• My Tenancy Agreement again stamped by the TAX office + 3 photocopies

Yet to obtain this document I had to go to an office which was not simple to get to, and I had to get there AT 7am!! The office being on a road in Athens called Petrou Ralli 24.. so imagine, I had to get up at 6am just to get there on time because they will not see you after 7am, except this office is actually the Immigration or Aliens Office of Athens, so imagine when I get there and I am mixed in with all sorts of people from outside the EU all trying to get their papers.. I was treated no different and was put in a MASSIVE queue with families from all parts of the world...

Now in my mind I realised that my papers would not take so long, since I didn't require half the things the others in line needed to show. However when it came to my turn eventually after 1 hour (so make that 8am) I happily went up to the desk which (by the way only 2 desks were open for over 100 people) insane!!!!

But I kept asking myself.. "I come to Greece from another EU country, I want to work here, I supposedly want to pay my taxes here, but just please count all the papers that I have already had to obtain.. and now I am standing in the Immigration office with hundreds of others from all around the world, from all sorts of war torn and impoverished countries.. however I just thought.. what IS the point of the EU??

For example, in the UK you require a National Insurance Number and your Passport, you give this to the employer and then the rest is taken care of.

Now this "Registration Certificate" is purely a Greek law I have already checked if other EU countries make other EU nationals go through this process and I have not found one.

So.. back to my story.. I approach the desk happy that I have all I need.. "Passport." he demands, "Photos." he demands again, "Pou Meneis;" he asked rather demandingly.. "Why are you here?" he demands again, basically I am being interrogated as to my reason for being in this country!...

So I retort "I am from another EU country I have all my papers (which have already taken an arm and a leg to get) can you provide me with the "Βεβαίωση Eγγραφής - Vevaiosi Engrafis" and let's be done, because I have no time for being interrogated as to why I want to stay here, I am an EU national and I have a right to live and work here..."

He retorts back.. " Your tenancy agreement is fake"...

"Excuse me? Sygnomy?" I say confused way.. "It is not fake Sir" I can feel the hoard of people behind me getting agitated.

So I just left and got some advice from my Embassy who just told me to try again, possibly the person serving you was not in the greatest of moods, cause they said they documents I had are fine and in fact all I actually needed to show was my Passport and a letter from my Employer.

But that is Greece.. never simple. So again tomorrow I will wake up at 6am for round 2.

ROUND 2 (I already completed round 2 on posting this saga)

In response to a person suggesting that few EU citizens do it... It is required as you say, however few EU citizens do it. In my case, I am being asked to do it by my employer and the OAED office.

So.. I woke up again today at 6:30am and made my way to the "Aliens Department"... arrival at 7:15am.

I entered and went to the desk, I was told that I was too late and they will not be able to process my application today.. too late???? Obviously I asked "Giati;"... the guy replies, "You need to have a number, but to get the number you must go to the other building behind this building..."

Things are getting confusing now, I had no number.. he continues.. "It is not allowed, because you have no number, but the number office closes at 7:10am".

I ask him.. "Can you please explain to me the whole process in detail, so I know."

"OK, you come at 6:30am you go the building behind this building, you queue and we will give you a number, you then take the number to this building we are in now, and collect the application form, then you go to office number 2 and wait for your number to be called, we will then check all of your documents, then you have to wait until maybe 3pm at which point sometime between 8am-3pm we will issue your "Registration Certificate", but you MUST come at 6:30am to get the first number, then you will not have to wait until 3pm..."

I asked the guy for his name... he replied "I am not allowed to give you it, to get my name you need to go to office 7 and ask them, they may give you my name"

I said "But what if I need to ask for you, or call you, or if I want to refer to you, you are a public servant, are you not? It is only right that you give me your name"

"It is not allowed" he replies.

I left, deciding that round 2 was another failed attempt.

Look, I understand I have to do this, but the way the Greeks set up the system in order to get this "Registration Certificate" is the problem, even if other EU countries require the same of other EU citizens.. I am sure without a doubt the process is a lot simpler, there are more offices, they provide signs and information in English (or other EU languages) they don't talk to you like some kind of immigrant from a war torn country who is seeking refuge, and most of all they don't require you to go from building to building at 6am in the morning!!!!!

Round 3 coming up.. I have been advised now to get a lawyer to do all of this on my behalf.. are there any other EU citizens here who have been living and working in Greece longer than 3 months, maybe we can all go together we can make it an offical MEETUP.

ROUND 3 COMING SOON...

HI Josef

This sort of crap makes me so angry. How awful for you. If it was me, I would ask to speak to a superior (worked for me once).

Go to this website and send in a complaint, just cut and paste what you wrote here http://ec.europa.eu/community_law/your_rights/your_rights_forms_en.htm

In Greece, I would send the above to Maki Triandafilopoulos who is on Zougla.gr and likes to deal with this sort of complaint...he might help you. You can write in English on his page where there are also phone numbers.
http://www.zougla.gr/page.ashx?pid=12&mid=94

The problem is as nimbus on the chatbox found, that the normal garden variety Greek clerks don't give a damn, and if you want some real answers the managers are a better bet, but...you can't get to them easily.

This sort of thing needs to get sorted in Greece and the only way is for people like yourself to publicise the problems. Best of luck

Josef, I would say that the answer to your problem is contained in this quotation, I would strongly urge you to heed this good advise thereby avoiding any further distress to yourself, obviously the services of a lawyer are expensive, but when attempting to deal with Greek bureaucracy it is well worth the outlay.

Thanks for the messages guys, for round 3 as I put it, I will refer to a lawyer and heed the advice given, thanks again. I am sure there will be no round 4.

We got our Certificates last year and had no problems at all.

As we've said before, it obviously depends on the area you live in. We are in Crete and the local tourist police station that we have to use is in Hersonissos. We were given an appointment to meet with the policeman responsible for 'aliens', told what information we needed to take with us (from memory it was AFM, IKA book (this was prior to the AMKA no), passport, 3 or 4 passport photos, copy of our tenancy agreement and copies of everything). We made sure we took all our official papers and copies of everything so that we wouldn't have to go back another day.

On the day, we turned up I went in first, gave all my documents. He said the letter I had from my employer wasn't in the format he needed it in but he'd accept it anyway... He then told me to go away and send my husband in. He had to go and get a set of passport photos because the photos all have to be the same and he had 2 different photos (not that you couldn't tell that it was him). We returned with the photos. The policeman printed out our certificates, stamped lots of things, asked for a couple of euros for the stamps, handed us all our documents and the certificates and that was that...

Wow, so they did it there and then!! Amazing.. I guess half the problem is I am doing this at the office in Athens, which is packed and they only have one office that provides these certificates, I guess I could try the Police Station??

But someone said.. it just depends, one day it may be simple another day it may be a nightmare.

I have now got a lawyer that will do it on my behalf, but one question? You didn't even have to fill in the form yourself? He did it for you?

We filled out the forms ourselves. It was in Greek, English and I think Albanian.

That is your whole problem, Athens is a different world from the islands where Ishall and I live,on the islands the whole pace of living is more relaxed particularly in the early-mid or late season.

A lawyer will complete any forms with information that you provide, all that is required from you is that you are prepared to sign the forms with a clear conscience that the information that you have given is accurate and true.

I sympathise. I had to do the same thing and it is a nightmare.
You do have to be there at 6.30 and you have to go to the entrance at the BACK of the building. You are put in a queue with people from outside the EU but then at 6.30, EU people are herded into a line and marched (army-style) through the gates.

This is the moment when you realise that EU citizens are treated very differently from those from places like India, Pakistan, Afghanistan etc. As we were marching through the gate, there was a surge of people to the fence and they had to wave their papers through the fence as a policeman selected whose papers would be taken. It was a shocking and depressing sight.

As for EU citizens, you are then taken to a desk and given a number and so the process continues. I was there for about 4 hours but did get my card (although you have to pay for the photocopy from a little booth at the periptero outside the front gate).

If you've got any doubts about what you need and whether your papers are acceptable, visit your local ΚΕΠ office and they will advise you.

I agree that it is a ridiculous situation and I wondered why I didn't see any 'other' non-EU citizens in the queue (e.g. Americans, Canadians, Australians etc). I presume they must have a more humane way of obtaining their papers, probably through their embassies.

If you go for round 3, take a good book.

So.. round 3.. I decided to take some advice and try at another office in Athens, the Maroussi Office, I had been told better things of it.

So off I went suspecting that I need to get there at the crack of dawn, so I arrived at 7am.. then went to enter the office (Police Station) only to be told:

"Why are you so early?, Applications start at 8am and you can come from 8am-Lunchtime."

"What!!??" Scratching my head confused, but also surprised by the civilised nature of that sentence.

I took a little photo while I waited: http://tweetphoto.com/12993726

So.. 8am came between 7:30am-8am about 6/7 other people arrived, but they didn't seem rushed or eager.

At 8am we were all called in and allowed to enter, up I went to the office, I was 2nd in line and waiting patiently.

I watched as the guy in front of me, gave his papers, had them checked by a very polite civil servant, only to be issued his Registration Certificate in under 10 minutes (no tickets, no waiting, no delays) and a smile at the end of it..

Then it was my turn:

"Yassas, Ti Kavete;" The guy said..

"Kala, esi;" I say optimistic.

"Pou meneis;" He says...

I tell him "XXX" (For privacy reasons can't say, but it is Central Athens).

"Sorry, but this office is only for Northern Athens" he says.

"But are my papers correct?" I ask him

"Yes they are fine, wait I will check with my manager if I can process it, I think it is ok actually" he says.. with a smile.

"Ok, Euxaristw poli!" I am even more optimistic, after witnessing the guy in front of me get his Reg Cert in under 10 mins!

"Sygnomy.. I cannot do it.. you need to go to the Tavros office that is in Petrou Ralli 24, because you live in Central Athens, I am very sorry, it is possible, but they say I cannot, I will give you all the details. But I warn you the Tavros office is very busy."

I interrupt "It is ok, I know all the details."

I leave, with a taste of civilised Greek Bureaucracy in my mouth... but I leave unfruitful.

So.. back to the Tavros it is. In theory I think it would have been possible to get the document, but alone I could not explain my situation, I don't think the office is as big an issue as they make out it to be, they just add the fact that you must go to only 1 office to cause red tape.

Ever thought of moving Josef - to N Athens, even temporarily!

Thanks for the pic. Brought back nice memories of that building.

We went there because we used to live in N. Iraklio, just around the corner. But first we also went to Petrou Ralli and yes, it's how you describe it. We were lucky. Some guy asked what we wanted and took us to, probably the same, two desks. And it was after hours. Glad to say that they told us to go to Marousi.
It took us two visits there, because we didn't have every single slip of paper translated. Because we are self employed we had to show that we had insurance from where we came from and those papers had to be translated. So another fine visit to downtown Athens, near Monemvasia Station to the translation office. Some papers were in English others in Dutch. My wife went to the English department and I to the floor where all the 'strange quircky' langauage are.
After a week the translations were ready and then it was plain sailing at Marousi police station. And each time there there were just one or two 'clients'. Well, on that floor. All the 'real' immigrants were on the floor above us.

There has been sound advise here:
-go live in northern Athens (or around Sparti... it took 10 minutes to get the renewall for life)
-go take a lawyer
-or go to KEP and let them handle this case?

Good luck with it and keep on trying! And when you succeed try importing a car! This Registration Certificate will then feel like nothing. Importing your car, THAT is fun!

Hi Jozef,

Still struggling there?

I have been there three times now and still no result, last time, my employer's letter was too old, it was four months old...

It looks like they are way overworked and really do not want to help since, if they accept your application, they then have to process it, it is much easier to send you away...

However, it is illegal under EU law for any body to put the possession of the registration certificate as a condition for employment, this is clearly stated here:

http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/nav/fr/c ... ex_en.html

I am now struggling to get mine just because my wife who is not EU need to get her residence card, so she can get AFM and work.

Otherwise I would really do without it and I suggest you do so, just push your employer saying that this should have nothing to do with your employment, AFM and ID card or passport is all they need.

I have now filed a complaint with the European commission against Greek police, as it clearly states in the link above that they are not supposed to ask for anything else than your ID and a confimation from the employer, no proof of address at all. We'll see how this unfolds, but I suggest you send a complaint too, that might get things moving for some future victim of Petrou Ralli 24. (I also filed a complaint against the council of Athens for a similar story)

And for the car import, I am working on that too, and the Greek government is in court with the Commission again:

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAct ... anguage=en

A few question to the others, if you apply for a self-employed registration certificate, what papers do they want?

Also, if you apply for registration certificate for other reasons, which I would like to do, how much money do you need to prove you have available and under what form? bank statements, stamped from wherever?

Lastly, does anyone know an affordable lawyer who can help with that, I contacted one, he quoted 1500 euro, so I declined the offer.

Wow! Thanks for fiding that, it will really help with my complaint to the EU.

Actually I successfully after the fourth attempt and 9 hours in the office obtain the registration certificate and then was forced in order to retrieve my passport, go across the road to the local kiosk and get 2 photocopies of my registration certificate and then return and give it to the guy in order to obtain my passport, although there was a photocopier behind him, clearly he was abusing his power and making a money from the people that have to get the registration certificate with his mate across the road, each simple black and white copy cost 1 euro each!! And no way would he give me my passport back without doing that, and leaving the police station, then having to get back in.

http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/nav/fr/c ... ex_en.html

SORRY FOR THE DOUBLE REPLY BUT I FORGOT TO ANNOUNCE THAT I GOT IT, AND THIS WAS MY PROCESS WITH PIC ATTACHED.

Thank you!

What can I say.. I got it! My employer will send this off and see now if that is what was needed to employ me in Greece.

So "Round 4" went like this:

Woke up at 5:30am.. made my way to Tavros. Arrived at Tavros at 6:30am on arrival I realised that I had not left enough time... I had to go the back of the Police station, when I got round there there were 3 groups well.. kinda of they were all pretty mixed up, but there were 3 groups, one for EU, one for Non-EU and one for Albanians.

The EU lump of a mass queue... was packed enough, I knew then that I had not arrived early enough to get in, the Police officers were shouting a lot at everyone to move back, move back.. since there was lots of pushing to get through one little gate then in to the front courtyard of the Police station.. i decided to be Greek and push in, I thought.. forget queuing politely, that does not work here, I have to do it the Greek way, I knew it was my only chance of not being told to come again because they have a cut-off of the numbers they let in, which is about 70, yet there were more than 70 in the EU mass outside the gate.

So I ducked in head down... then I hear the police officer call me... "What are you doing?" he says, pointing to the back of the mass of people.. "Where are you from?" he said.. "Eimai Anglos" I replied.. he flicked his hand and told me enter, I proceeded without any more bother.. I WAS IN!

Once in we had to form a long queue then we were frog marched in to the Police station, once in, there was a lady at a table, who had the "magic numbers".. again people were pushing in even at this stage, because the lower the number to sooner you get in and out of there.

I was given number 34 I was sure I was about 10th in line when I got through the gate... anyway.. with the number you are given the application form, it is in Greek, French and English.

Once In the main room, there was a small notice board up on the wall which gave translations in Romanian and Bulgarian.. almost all the people who were in the room excluding about 15 people where using this and fighting for a share of some pens. I filled in my application.. "What is your purpose for coming to Greece?" I filled it in "I AM EU" next question.. "How long do you wish to stay in Greece" again I answer "I AM EU". The other questions I thought were irrelevant and I just put N/A next to them.

Apart from my Name and Address of course.

So.. then at 7am the counter opens and the number above it flashes "001" up goes the first person.. after 5 mins they are rejected and told to leave... "002" this one takes a little longer.. around 15 mins to be precise.. this person is accepted and they have to go back and wait.. "003" again takes about 10 mins. "004".. rejected ... "005" .. argument.. rejected... "006" 15 minutes... "007"... rejected ... this process goes on for a while.. but then the guy gets up and comes out from behind the counter and starts shouting something in Greek at us all... I asked a German person who I had teamed with in this process to translate (there were there to convert their 5 year residence permit to the new Registration Certificate) they told me the guy said he will stop processing applications unless every listens to him and shuts up. "NO TALKING, NO TALKING!!" he was shouting.

I just wanted to knock him off his high horse and tell him to get the feck on with it. "008" flashes.. rejected...

By the time it came to my turn it was now 10:30am. I went up gave my papers.. this time, no questions, it took about 5 mins for me, he took my passport and asked me to be seated and wait.. I asked him, "How long will it take?" he said up to 2 hours. I went and sat back down.

I watched what happened to my papers, before he called "035" he was going through them again and again.. finally he got up and carried them out of this application room via... and this is the funny bit... across a courtyard and handed them in through an open window to a hand that was poking out, then walk all the way back and called "035"... rejected.. "036".. so this process went on and on, me sitting there with others just waiting.. and waiting... and waiting.. during this time a few people arrived as I did on my first attempt.. later at around 8am or 9am to be told to come back again tomorrow at 7am (I then chased them and told them 7am is not enough! You need to come at 6am to be sure.) But... and this is the bit I don't understand.. some people came later around 8am, 9am and the guy at the counter just served them.. even people coming at 10am got served sometimes.. this reminded me of the time I did it and how it felt like he was going to serve me.

Ok to cut a long story short.. finally I hear my name.. "JOSEF" and he hands me the little paper I was after, I ask for my passport... and this is the weird bit.. "Oxi" he says.. I ask why.. he says. "Go and get 2 photocopies and bring it back and then I will give you your passport".. I gave a confused look.. thinking.. where am I supposed to find a photocopier? And then thinking to myself.. this is ridiculous, they don't have a photocopier in the Police station, or they don't photocopy them beforehand????

The answer was no, and I realised i had to leave the Police Station and make my way to the Periptero where a very happy owner of the Periptero ran his lucrative, laminating, and copying business (in a little hut behind the Periptero) "BRITISH? He said with enthusiasm.. "How many copies?".. "Two" I replied.. he said.. "Do you want it laminated too?".. "OK" I said. Then he said with a happy voice, "Did you know that now you only need to get this document once!" ... "I know, thank feck for that" I replied.. "€2.40" he said... and then I had to go back in the Police Station to get my passport and get the heck out of there.. the time now was almost 2pm (So much for those 2 hours)

And here is a photo of the thing I went through all the trouble of getting: