Time-waster – Gambler – Amateur?

Forums Nothing to do with Greece GOM Time-waster – Gambler – Amateur?

This topic contains 35 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  The Grocer 2 years, 1 month ago.

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  • #158663

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    So the Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis was yesterday branded ‘a time-waster, a gambler and an amateur’ during furious exchanges with his European counterparts?
    They’ve only just decided that?
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/news/article-3054479/EU-chiefs-brand-Greek-finance-minister-time-waster-gambler-amateur.html

    And they’ve also only just realised that Greece was not going to be able to make their repayments and had no intention of making the reforms which had previously been promised?

    This bunch of amateurs are reversing any progress which had started and was so badly needed!

    Oh well, Greece survived desperate poverty in the past and turned back to the land to survive, so I suppose they can do it again? 😕

  • #194693

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    This bunch of amateurs are reversing any progress which had started and was so badly needed!

    I did not see any progress the entire time I was in Greece, only worsening of poverty and unemployment while the elite transferred their money out of the country and continued not to pay their dues, leaving the paupers to stand in never ending lines for health and for arranging to pay the pittance they could scrounge together to pay the increasing taxes thrust upon them.

    Let’s not forget that the present government inherited the burnt earth that the previous Government managed to impose upon the people. The previous by having their noses stuck neatly up the derrières of the lenders and not negotiating any of the memorandum and totally ignoring and not investigating the Lagarde List that featured most of their cronies and their own ministers operating under different off shore guises and who had stolen billions of Greek euros via dirty military deals etc. They were the real gamblers and very professional ones at that.

    So far amateur Varoufakis, has got a clean slate and no billions stashed on the Lagarde List.

  • #194694

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    You present a good argument kiwi….
    However, although “amateur Varoufakis, has got a clean slate and no billions stashed on the Lagarde List.”, YET, it’s early days yet! :)) Seriously though, that is exactly the sort of thing which Samaras needed time to address – The corruption.
    Unless the corruption is addressed, Greece can never progress; however the roots of corruption are in a system of goverment which controls businesses, gives individuals unbridled power in their government departments or councils, won’t allow for the easy sacking of even corrupt individuals, etc. etc…. all these and other things in Greece are embedded in the very culture of Greece and a breeding ground for corruption….
    I was seeing Samaras had a will (albeit too weak a will) to put these things right by downsizing the astronomically bloated civil service, cutting their powers, privatising the loss making government industries, forcing them into efficiency….. But alas, all these things, which are badly needed by Greece, are the things which are an anathema to the communist party and they are now busily reversing any progress started by the previous government in those areas!

    On your comment about ‘not having seen any progress the entire time you were in Greece, only worsening of poverty and unemployment'; the unfortunate and unpalatable reality, is that change on this scale, which needs to get to the very roots of the culture of waste, takes time and needs a lot of nerve and staying power, as it’s going to hurt an awful lot for time, but will eventually break through!
    However, in this generation of instant gratification and instant results, along with our ‘instant communication’, ‘instant meals’ and ‘instant coffee’, we also expect instant results in war with no sacrifice and no pain and instant political reforms with no sacrifice and no pain….. it’s just not going to happen any more than you ladies demanding a natural birth with no pain! There is a time of great discomfort, then a time of extreme pain, but then the baby is born…. but for the baby to be born without months of discomfort and then pain, it’s just not going to happen! :roll:

    I’m all for this government stomping on the corrupt rich and corrupt politicians, but that is quite separate from the way they need to respect what they have been entrusted with and the responsibilities which come with that! They cannot just say that they will not repay what the country owes and expect no repercussions, or even worse, to say that they will not repay, but they expect to be loaned more to be able to pay their bills? That is naivity!

    If they feel that getting out of the Euro is the way to go, then do it… if they want to stay, then act like it!
    If they are going to initiate some actual economic reforms, then go ahead…… but don’t dawdle and run around as if they don’t really know what they’re doing and are making it all up as they go along!
    In other words… to use my old saying, “IF YOU’RE GOING TO SPIT, THEN SPIT! DON’T DRIBBLE DOWN YOUR CHIN!”…. Until they move on from the dribbling stage, they’re still amateurs! 😕

  • #194695

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    we also expect instant results in war with no sacrifice and no pain and instant political reforms with no sacrifice and no pain…

    exactly correct….and everyone is expecting and commenting on why Varoufakis and Co are not succeeding in a few months of power. Is anyone giving them a chance? Brussels is making very sure that they close all doors because the people didn’t vote in who THEY wanted.

    Smarter people than I have agreed that stripping the populace of their pensions and wages so that they struggle to survive will not bring growth.

    All I saw in the last five years was plundering of National wealth by giving state assets to their cronies, and firing anyone on the committees that dared to question the objectivity., For this they were amply rewarded in their offshore accounts and then hiding the evidence which has come up in various lists, HSBC, Lagarde etc. The last lot were crooked and lazy and Samaras lied to the people before being voted in. He did an about turn on all his promises made at his famous pre election speech in Zapeion. Unfortunately the paupers, don’t have offshore accounts and their assets and money can be confiscated and dealt with in any way the powers decide.

    If this lot were communists, they would have closed the doors of Greece from day one. Instead they are trying to negotiate which is akin to farting against thunder with the present Brussels regime. Varoufakis has clearly stated many times Greece acknowledges its debt.

    People that were from the right and center voted this lot in for the very reasons above. Communists voted for the Communist Party which has nothing to do with Tsipras. We can’t name every party that is not right wing Communist.

  • #194696

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Well, I daresay that time will tell Kiwi…..
    Going to be an interesting year! :mrgreen:
    Watch this space…………..

  • #194697

    Shazzie
    Participant
    Oracle

    Well as far as I can tell ( from my insignificant knowledge of finance !), how can you expect Greece to pay money it hasn’t got ?

    Certainly the agreement was made, but as only Germany has profited from the IMF loan, why don’t they pay it instead !! Or alternatively pay the war reparations Greece never received and then Greece WILL have the funds !

    It seems to me an endless tunnel of bankruptcy and insecurity.
    So sad.

  • #194698

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    I can sympathise with Shazzie’s view; if you borrow money don’t do much sensibly with it, squander it, don’t use it to significantly improve the problem areas, get into a bigger downward spiral and then need to pay it back when it all has gone then, yes, it does seem an impossibility!
    but do not see how

    only Germany has profited from the IMF loan

    but

    an endless tunnel of bankruptcy and insecurity

    could well be all we can see!

    I wonder if things had been put in place to start a correction of everything that seems to be wrong with Greece financially, whatever the cause. Let me be brutal here if the cause is not addressed then the situation will get worse. Historic mistakes cannot be relied upon to try and force a sudden turn araound through claim or counter claim. War reparations may well have been justified but they were signed away to join the common market and any benefits frittered away or creamed off. The climate did seem to be changing a little, but oh so slowly. How can we expect a new government to turn that around in a few weeks or keep all their popular promises when they need liquid funds to do so and seemingly try to ignore promises to creditors (or at least argue the way out of it).
    I doubt if

    Brussels is making very sure that they close all doors because the people didn’t vote in who THEY wanted.

    is really true. I would expect they do not care who is in government provided they turn Greece around, stick to promises and pay debts.

    I am no expert on the Greek economy but I believe that some progress had been made but as is often the case the poor and powerless get the worst of the deal under ‘austerity’. This is common across the EU in varying degrees hence the relative popularity of anti austerity politicians all over; hence I believe part of the reason for the current popularity of the SNP in the forthcoming UK election, so it seems. [ borrrow now to pay for it later; similar to PPP investment that cost even more down the line]. Being on the cusp of a major crisis is no way to plan for success but yet it means drastic action needs to be taken one way or the other.

    Large financial sums need to be raised that often means reducing outlays as well as selling off the family silver – perhaps by now that is not even bronze! Devaluation used to be a quick fix but that is hardly possible whilst keeping the Euro. Lots of schemes have been mentioned (including on Zerohedge etc.) The edge of the abyss looms and the amateurs in government seems to have no answer to stop Greece going into debtor’s prison. Snuggling up to the Russians may not be fruitful to anywhere the extent needed and is certainly a potentially successful ploy if only they played their cards better and didn’t just antagonise those who under the status quo need to be satisfied. Without a deal on that front promises (by Syriza) to the people cannot be met. The deal requires action that contradicts those same promises. Virtually an impasse.

    Varoufakis has clearly stated many times Greece acknowledges its debt.

    but unfortunately does not seem to take action to honour that debt so that rather makes his words nonsense…or worse.

    Mindset is a major stumbling block and hellishly difficult to overcome. Too little too late possibly has been the lack of progress for years in terms of action to generate a better balance sheet – and that is sorely needed as the ‘commune’ idea just does not work in a capitalist society, at best alleviating group suffering in small areas but not getting to the root cause of the malaise. Handouts, loans, subsidies whatever else has come from the EU or international lenders just is not working. I read somewhere that revenue balance had improved but is dwarfed by debt repayment and interest.

    Cash is needed now. Where is it to come from? If I were a lender struggling to get my loan repaid I would not lend more; even with the prospect of a good return the risk is too great hence the rating levels made by agencies.

    This bunch of amateurs are reversing any progress which had started and was so badly needed!

    That does seem to be what is promised or might be happening but could it be that they are much cleverer than they are given credit for? At least (for now) they have the backing of a good number of Greeks who, understandingly, are perhaps grasping at straws whist at the same time keeping the international financiers at bay or delaying things and causing not a bit of panic till they pull the rabbit out of the hat and hey presto! all is solved.

    I would like to see if they have compiled a list of assets that could be usefully employed. I have always maintained (always = a few years here! ) they should sell their own holidays rather than letting foreign tour operators make all the profits. Keep more in country and double the season – we don’t all just holiday in August! A mindset thing again? perhaps it is too ate to make the urgent differences needed but it surely would have helped if done ten years ago given the size of the tourist industry. Not more crowded beaches mid summer but make use of the fantastic assets from March right through November. So many places get income from utilising their history ans assets all year round. It’s done in many cool climates so why not in a warmer one. My home town is stacked out in ‘summer’ but busy for much more of the year when Greece is shut….hmmmm maybe that’s why………

  • #194699

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Unfortunately, the media keep spouting about how much money was lent to Greece with very little about how that money was actually used to save the French and German banks, with a pittance percentage going to the Greek people. Search You Tube and there are a number of good serious documentaries on the back story.

    My gut feeling after this interview last night with Tsipras, a lot of people have warmed to his policies a lot more.

    He did also question why Greece never took up the Russian offers over the past years to house the Southstream pipeline. It is common knowledge now that when ex PM Karamanlis entertained this idea, he was threatened by the other Big Power, and an assassination attempt was thwarted by a Russian tip off to him. Dirt everywhere and too many ‘good’ people sticking their noses into the affairs of Greece, not allowing them to ever prosper.

  • #194700

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Those stating that it was money to save the banks (F &G) are really being far too simplistic although that will have certainly coloured the judgement of the EU lenders not wishing yet another banking crisis. That does nobody any good as although there are bloated salaries and bonuses in the end the banks are owned by shareholders and it is these people, directly or otherwise that would also lose out. Shareholders are not necessarily just those who we would consider the rich.

    The fact of the matter is that the loans be they from banks or similar financial institutions (and then EU, IMF etc) were not made to Greek people but to the country. As such there is no direct benefit to individuals but to the state. It enable the state to continue functioning – for how long who knows? – thus some indirect benefit to individuals but also many who suffer owing to the situation, the tightening of the country’s purse strings (because of the poor situation and trying to recover from it) and the continued corrupt and impractical practices such as the bloated public sector, burdensome bureaucracy and early retiral for some. Hence the need for change, surely.

    Had money been lent/given to individuals or businesses i.e. the Greek people some would have been better off in the short term – a bit like the welfare system extras – with no incentive to make changes much like the handouts given by the EU such as via the very discredited Common Agricultural policy of past times and its successor schemes. More Mercedes cars on the road, money circulated out of Greece again and still no changes to sort the causes of the rot. So really that is a non starter.

    As far as Greece is concerned it is sort of robbing Peter to pay Paul when loans come from different sources but it does buy time that appears to be wasted with change to efficient and cheap practice painfully slow.

    I note a report today that the team negotiating the deal has been changed with the finance minister effectively taking a back seat for the time being. Is that the rabbit coming out of the hat, I mentioned previously? I suspect not. :(

  • #194701

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @kolofarthos wrote:

    ………. robbing Peter to pay Paul :(

    I had long given up the will to live reading this thread until I came to this bit….. :mrgreen:
    When can I pick up the money? :mrgreen:

  • #194702

    the reiver
    Participant
    Oracle

    @kolofarthos wrote:

    More Mercedes cars on the road,

    In Greece, only taxi drivers have Mercs ! :nod:

    @kolofarthos wrote:

    robbing Peter to pay Paul

    Any politician doing this will always have KP’s vote (if he had one) ! ic_shock

    In summary, the Greek people tried the rest and opted for change. This Government is now up against the big boys playing hardball, but let’s wait and see. They have said they will have to compromise and that they will honour the debts, so why can’t the troika bend a little as well.

    8)

  • #194703

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    WAKE UP NOW KP 😆

    You can pick up your share out of my next lottery winnings, KP.
    I pity poor Peter!

    Reiver, I am not sure the Greek people did try everything else, much was forced upon them such as tax rises job losses, (maybe) better book keeping/receipts so most change that had taken place was really forced by outside influences (that was never to go down well), patience was lost and hence the populist policies advocated by Syriza won. The few business contacts I have been aware of still thought it wrong to volunteer their tax status and could not believe that in some countries such as the UK self assessment is done as they would rather have hidden their income!

    All that does not make it any better or fairer for those at the bottom of the heap and the feeling you are backed into a corner and your patience is running out, nay, despairation is setting in!

    Mercedes cars (true mainly taxis) are just one example of buying foreign goods – could just as easily have written TVs or mobile phones, non of which helps (as it used to be called) balance of payments especially when so little is exported!

    Perhaps the Troika wish to see the reality of the statements and fear they are just false promises?

  • #194704

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Possibly what reiver meant was that the people had tried the same old elite families who they voted for every election and who had done nothing for the middle and lower strata, so now they are doing a complete about turn by voting in the untried.

  • #194705

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    hmmm, possibly Kiwi

    … but Syriza were really voted in on an anti austerity promise. That was to surely ease the situation internally for the people however the Government has to deal with internal and external issues and internal aims don’t necessarily match external realities so either Alexis bows to external pressure, a compromise is reached or default. I wonder if the latter might be very hard indeed in the short term and indeed chaos. It is not really just about an option of borrowing more (sort of the middle ground) as who will lend?

    Must watch the rest of the Alexis interview but he seems to now be far more moderate, faced with the realities, than he was with his promises before elected………ah yes that’s politics……but with still some rhetoric to do some things that will not please the creditors so slowly, if time allows, there may well be compromise….and many of the people might nor get what they hoped for.

    As KP wrote, time will tell …..and possibly soon!

  • #194706

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    For sure he is pleasing a few more people. His party ratings are rising.

    As for people voting a no austerity party, there were others parties with that same policy.

  • #194707

    Shazzie
    Participant
    Oracle

    he seems to now be far more moderate, faced with the realities, than he was with his promises before elected………ah yes that’s politics.

    Twas ever thus with every politician in every election I fear !

  • #194708

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    In the interests of obtaining a small degree of understanding as we play the waiting game of ‘watch this space’, I read what is perhaps one of the best and most ‘understandable’ ( :roll: ) articles I’ve seen yet on where we are at the moment!
    http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/05/12/the-political-tragedy-of-the-greek-economic-crisis-default-europe-tsipras/
    In the article, I was also intersted to read so clearly that, “Greece had a primary surplus when Syriza took office — that is, tax receipts were sufficient to operate the government if debt were excused; now even outright default wouldn’t make Greece solvent.” I had read and understood that previous to the election, but was very surprised that the ND didn’t make more of the ‘primary surplus’ as an election issue? But then I suppose, when people are hurting and can’t actually ‘feel & see’ how such a surplus is helping them, then it’s just words!
    But the reality overall is that Syriza has taken Greece from a position of ‘growth’ (albeit a slow one), into an even deeper depression through their political naivety! The big bubble is becoming even bigger and we all know what eventually has to happen to the bubble! 😐

  • #194709

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Most commentators are saying that they are trying to humiliate Tsipras and co, and that the EU are changing the goalposts every time the Greeks answer their demands. The game is dirty, it’s clear that the EU want a right wing leadership in place and are doing their best to discredit Tsipra so that he loses the growing support he is gaining. How can anyone blame a government that has been in power only a couple of months.

  • #194710

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic
  • #194711

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Excellent Kiwi….. I knew that I could rely on you to respond like that! You keep me stimulated! :))

    Unfortunatly, your claims of this conspiracy against the government, although partially true, are just another indication of the ‘victim mentality’ which seems to pervade Greece and the government!

    I think it’s more likely that the EU just want a functioning government – any government which understands European or even local economics, not necessarily a right wing government! :roll:

    The level of EU despair was reflected in the German minister’s retort when Mr Tzips threatened a referendum on the EU…. The German minister basically said, “great, do it, do anything, but do something! At least we’ll then know what we have to deal with and a decision will at least have been made”!

    So clearly the problem is that the EU frustration level seems to be not in that they’re dealing with a far left wing government, because they’re also doing so with Cyprus and France to name but 2 other, but in that they are dealing with a government which doesn’t seem to understand or be qualified to run a country in the complexities of the 21st century and which seems to have learnt how to run a government from the TV or some handbook somewhere, seeing as they seem to overly rely on ‘brinkmanship negotiation’!

    Like the EU, personally, I respect the democrtic process whereby the people have chosen their government, but all I really want now is a government which will make some hard and fast decisions and stick with them, rather than making endless innuendos and threats….. at least we would then know whether there’s any future for Greece and will know whether to stay or go, or anything else?

  • #194712

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    How can anyone blame the boy who has been in power less than 100 days? Let’s not forget that Kamenos the deputy PM is far right wing so it’s not a one sided far left government, it’s a coalition.

    As for innuendos and threats. Looking at other options that will benefit Greece is wisdom, common sense and only a threat to those that expect Greece to blindly obey more austerity where this has been a proven failure in the last years.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/10101660/EU-put-eurozone-safety-before-Greece-during-bailout-IMF-report-claims.html

  • #194713

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    If one can’t take the heat in the kitchen the moment one walks into it, then perhaps they shouldn’t take up the head chef position? 😀

    I fully agree with the Daily Telegraph article and the report….. but why should it be any surprise that the EU commission put the interests of the Eurozone ahead of the interests of Greece? Where’s the surprise in that?

    I have never said that the EU commission is above reproach (and really wouldn’t lose a second of sleep if the EU vanished overnight), but what I have been saying is that Greece carries it’s own blame as well… they were big enough to accept the money they chased and which the EU (rightly or wrongly) allowed them to have in the interests of sustaining the Eurozone (not so much in the interests of Greece), but it’s what happens NOW and what Greece are going to do about it that counts?….
    My only consistant complaint is that no clear decisions or strategies are being made to hopefully get Greece moving again…. all the “they’re to blame – they should haves” in the world are not soloutions! DO something – make a decision – anything! Just don’t sit in the kitchen for the first 100 days complaining about the heat and arguing over who or what is to blame for the heat!

  • #194714

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Well I suppose that all parties need to share some historic blame but as KP eloquently points out that is not the issue. There had been some slow changes coming through – not sure if they were making all that big a difference except to the people suffering and keeping the country afloat – but to expect to keep living on handouts from the Troika whilst not only failing to get their immediate support for policies but also letting the little revenue surplus dissapear seems to me naive.

    Even if the policy of spend to improve does work, and I have my doubts when the situation is so poor whilst staying in the EU club thus preventing devaluation, it would take a longtime. What is clearly needed is something major and something now – or rather before now!

    Yep rhetoric is fine at the right time but as pointed out where is the action. Has there been anything decisive and positive (as regards the economy)? That is what the lenders wish to see otherwise it could be goodbye. Getting on for three months is plenty time for experienced economists to decide which way to jump but the sloping shoulders proposal of referendum having just been elected sort of just proves that the manifesto promise is failing I.e. no austerity but risk giving us more money even if if you think we cannot pay it back and we undo all you forced us to do to improve!

  • #194715

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    and even more eloquently presented by Kolofartos! Your words are clearly more than just a kolo-fartos! :roll:
    Good to see that we Scots are sticking together Kolo!
    When we’ve worn out this discussion, perhaps we can start on these ‘new beginnings’ for Scotland? :mrgreen:

  • #194716

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Would those “new beginnings” be those according to ‘no austerity’ Nicola ‘Alexis’ Sturgeon by any chance?

    Another of life’s ‘we’ll tell you we will spend more and create jobs and make it better for all…..’ politicians? 😉 .. ‘and never mind the black holes they will disappear as if by magic!’ :nod:

  • #194717

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Time will tell. It seems however that in a straw poll, the Greek people are happy with the way he is negotiating and his support is growing. Media will portray matters the way that suits their respective leanings. It’s up to individuals to judge for themselves. The way I see it, he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. What I do know is that there are hundreds of new Greeks here in NZ and a lot in Australia. Greece is losing its talented youth, and that didn’t just happen in the last 100 days.

  • #194718

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    True much of the young talent is departing Greece, there are many that have come to the UK too over the last few years. The problem for the Greek economy is not new and it can not be laid at the new Governments door either. However, what are the prospects, has the exodus stopped, are the young returning, can they see any reason to do so?

    I can well understand why many of the people are grasping at the Tsipras straw. What he seems to offer is hope and popularly welcomed however often the medicine is bitter tasting. Many here in Skotia have voted for the populist policy and promises of the SNP but the record of action does not match all their rhetoric. Many cannot see that. It is hardly a good economic comparison but there are several political parallels.

    Time will indeed tell but it is in short supply whilst provaracation marches on and finances dwindle.

  • #194719

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    I think the Germans have got a cheek with all their demands. It is OK for them. They have a huge auto industry as well as chemical, industrial and financial. They have large coal deposits as well so it is much easier for them to increase their wealth. It seems that apart from tourism, feta cheese and retsina, the Greeks don’t have a lot going for them when it comes to creating wealth.

  • #194720

    The Grocer
    Participant
    Oracle

    The problem is the Greeks COULD create wealth if the government here made it easier for people to invest and open businesses. The “red tape” and hoops that have to be gone through are unbelievable, as are the employment restrictions and unions.

    For instance in the Peloponnese (I can’t speak for other parts of Greece) there are no hire companies where you can hire tools, trucks or a van. Truck drivers are only licensed to carry certain goods, carrying other items they can be fined. Restrictive practices exist throughout…….

    You can not even buy a cash register until you have applied to the authorities to do so, and then have to have it “plated” with your business number etc.

    Greece needs to be OPEN for business, attracting investment………the government need to wake to this fact

  • #194721

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Very well put Grocer! What you describe is probably the most significant resason for lack of decent business investment in Greece!
    All the normal excuses for Greeces problems don’t wash when one considers that all the P.I.I.G.S. – Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain, have all suffered, but Greece is the only one who is still suffering so much and is showing no sign of recovery yet!
    The difference between Greece and the rest of the PIIGS?
    The others have focussed on attracting investment, both internal and external and have particularly focussed on exports! Whereas Greece has the smallest export to GDP ratio in the EU!
    So, they not only make it very unattractive for anybody to set up or run a business in Greece and seem to actively discourage it as Grocer pointed out, but they are also quite hopeless at exporting, when they have a lot of very attractive products for export, but are so hopeless at pricing (often just greedy) and won’t invest at all in exporting! They’re very happy to recieve overseas orders, but don’t want to spend a single Euro in attracting export orders!
    So clearly it’s a combination of bad/unattractive business legistlation which the government are responsible for and bad business decisions by the Greek business owners….. So how can they ever hope for Greece to get out of their situation and improve without a complete change in business attitudes and business culture.

  • #194722

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Very well put both of you, I wonder though why it is so?
    Jo is right too that Germany has a lot of manufacturing wealth indeed 40% of it’s power comes from coal and it has established industries…..as well a strong private business work ethic, great products, marketing, supportive government, finance system…….etc. etc. many of the things Greece needs too but not a lot of initiative being shown to get them!

    It does not happen overnight and despite the government change very little evidence of creating the right conditions to get business working. It will be interesting to see what is made of the prospective sale of Pireaus port and if the unions will see the need or just stick their heads in the sand……no response needed!!

    I do think there are progressive ambitious and effective Greeks – I have worked with some in the UK so I guess many just vote with their feet!

  • #194723

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Oooh must add things might be changing! Mrs Kolly has just informed me of a massive export drive, Kiwi fruit from Greece on sale in our local lidl; perhaps the only item but this could be the start of something big….is that our Kiwi influencing Kiwi export sales? 😀 reb_popo reb_bravo

  • #194724

    Ian
    Participant
    Homeric

    My accountant actually advised against registering as a self-employed worker because (according to her) the rules keep changing every couple of weeks… :roll:

  • #194725

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Might be correct there Ian. With everything up in the air there are bound to be many changes still.

    And so we await…

  • #194726

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    @The Grocer wrote:

    The problem is the Greeks COULD create wealth if the government here made it easier for people to invest and open businesses. The “red tape” and hoops that have to be gone through are unbelievable, as are the employment restrictions and unions.

    For instance in the Peloponnese (I can’t speak for other parts of Greece) there are no hire companies where you can hire tools, trucks or a van. Truck drivers are only licensed to carry certain goods, carrying other items they can be fined. Restrictive practices exist throughout…….

    You can not even buy a cash register until you have applied to the authorities to do so, and then have to have it “plated” with your business number etc.

    Greece needs to be OPEN for business, attracting investment………the government need to wake to this fact

    Wow. didn’t realise it was that bad. Looks like Greece was the Mother of democracy then ran off with a travelling salesman.

  • #194727

    The Grocer
    Participant
    Oracle

    Logic is also a Greek word, but it does not mean they all practise it :)

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