THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM

Forums Nothing to do with Greece Utterly Off Topic THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM

This topic contains 28 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  KP 1 year ago.

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  • #225652

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Having been following the postings on the GIH board for the last year with very little input (apart from the few times I really couldn’t contain myself), I’ve been surprised, particularly over the last months, that nobody seems to have addressed the proverbial elephant in the room? THE BREXIT! :yahoo:

    Are you all hiding away in dark corners, hoping that you won’t be noticed when the BREXIT happens in a few weeks, as you’re afraid that you may get kicked out of Greece or something? ūüė•

    How do you think the upcoming brexit will affect you, if at all?

    Are you all rushing to apply for Greek citizenship? :wacko:

    Do you think it’ll be the end of civilisation as we know it? B-) Will we all have to get rid of our donkeys and trot back to the UK? :bye:

    Your brief comments in no more than 10,000 words please…….

  • #225656

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    zzzzzz……

    Ha!

    :unsure:

  • #225657

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    and great to see some new posters including that k, k , ksomebody…….

  • #225658

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    That elephant in my room is actually just a hairy dog the size of…..you should see what ‘presents’ he leaves in the garden that I have been delegated to pick up!!

  • #225660

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Well, on the plus side, I got 3 responses to my post…….. on the minus side, they were all from the same person! AND he’s not even an ex-pat…. in fact he’s one of the few Scots still left in Scotland who haven’t moved anywhere! :)

  • #225664

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    Right, well I’m in. Can’t understand those expats who want to leave the EU to stop those “bloody foreigners” going there and stealing jobs and so on. A tad hypocritical if you ask me.

    GiH Admin

  • #225667

    Shazzie
    Participant
    Oracle

    Yep, we;re both ‘Inners’ too.

    Honestly though it’s through pure selfishness.

    We can’t afford to lose the use of the E111 health cards, the EU Pet Passport Scheme or the Dual Taxation Agreement . Let alone what might happen over property ownership.

    We feel like we’re staring into an abyss !!!!¬† :unsure: ¬† :scratch:

  • #225669

    the reiver
    Participant
    Oracle

    Bloody hell, a post from SJS Admin.  Brexit we have no control over as we are 15 years and counting.

    IKA membership is a question that no-one can answer, but I think our pensions are ok as there is an agreement in there somewhere.

    My gut reaction is that “remain” will prevail, just. Similar to Scottish referendum.

     

    :wacko:

  • #225670

    Ian
    Participant
    Homeric

    I’m obviously an outsider in this discussion but that doesn’t mean I’m not curious to see what’s going to happen.

    I’ve watched some interviews with “outers” and I was sort of amazed by their reasons for wanting out.
    There was this fisherman who figured that, once outside the EU, he wouldn’t have to stick to fishery quota anymore :scratch:
    And this farmer who didn’t want any “interference” from the EU and refused to see that the “interference” was directly linked to the ‚ā¨20,000.- in annual subsidies he received from EU :scratch:
    Made me wonder if people had realy thought this through or if their choice was purely emotional…

  • #225671

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Well I too was surprised at the lack of topics on Brexit, after all expats potentially have as much to lose as anyone so well done kp for kick-starting it.

    I’ll declare¬† I am an “inner” at the outset!

    There is a lot wrong with the EU and it was very disappointing that David Cameron could not get over the strength of feeling and high percentage of “outers” during g his negotiations for change. I think other countries did not think there would be much risk of a UK leave and believed that the chat would only create more of a UK special case. Hardly any of the downside of the EU for all members was addressed. Freedom of movement was non negotiable.

    So with that lack of progress and the background of uncontrolled migration (seen by many as detrimental to UK) being the biggest issue it is not surprising that currently the Brexit camp seem to be now in the lead according to the polls.

    For Ian, the fishermen see quotas as being decided by the EU have been hammered in business sense with the UK industry neatly destroyed but at the same time boats from other EU countries taking fish from historically UK waters.

    Some farmers see the Common Agricultural Policy as a mountain of red tape and the subsidies replaceable easily given the financial contribution by the UK to the EU.

    I’ll not add to the reasoning false or not to those points except that some farmers would not be in business were it not for immigrant workers.

     

    • #225673

      kolofarthos
      Participant
      Homeric

      Would have done an edit of the typos if I was able but hopefully the essence of what I wrote gets understood! :good:

  • #225680

    Ian
    Participant
    Homeric

    …the fishermen see quotas as being decided by the EU have been hammered in business sense with the UK industry neatly destroyed but at the same time boats from other EU countries taking fish from historically UK waters….

    True :good: ¬† But that’s valid for the fishing industries of more EU countries (the Dutch fleet has been decimated too) and stepping out of the EU is not going to magically restore the shoals either. :negative:

    And as for boats from other countries taking fish from historically UK waters, that works vice versa, doesn’t it. :scratch:
    The UK can keep the others out but will in turn be kept out of everybody elses waters. :bye:

    All in all, I still think they’re voting “out” because they’re hoping that things will then be better but I fear there’s no back in if it doesn’t work out that way. :negative:

  • #225681

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    You are spot on Ian. What was necessary on a scientific basis….the EU got the blame. One fact though is that there are more boats coming to ‘UK waters’ from other EU countries than the other way around because of where the fish are so all is not equal in that respect. Some comment that Britains cannot go and pick the Spanish olives or French grapes and other countries are very protective, understandably!

    I can understand you think leave is based on hope, it’s more though that we cannot get better within the EU, it’s cost us on balance, we could get dragged down by the EU problems and hear things could be better outside. However the biggest reason is that many believe there is no control over immigration and we should have that. That obviously goes against free movement. The far right have whipped up the little Englanders (who have blinkers on and see no benefit) and put out lots of stories to demonstrate the negative aspects ignoring that half immigration is not from the EU, most work hard, lots well qualified, are necessary, pay taxes etc …plus scare stories sell newspapers. “Wow Turkey has many millions and they will all be able to come to the UK soon”¬† ¬† I suppose like all other EU citizens think it is so great here in the UK they have already migrated!!

    So yes, nothing certain, all based upon hope, to hell with the unknown risks and definite current benefits to all.

    And the Remain camp have not put forward the arguments well to explain the benefits so the self centred, selfish, unintelligent and racist gain ground…… :negative:

  • #225682

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    We’re doomed, I tell ye!

    I fear it might just be exit but if not relations will still be soured a bit.

  • #225684

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Kolo….. why is it that you rabid ‘stayers’ are so obsessed with immigration and claim it to be the basically the only thing that ‘Leavers’ like myself are about?
    You state, “And the Remain camp have not put forward the arguments well to explain the benefits so the self centred, selfish, unintelligent and racist gain ground‚Ķ”¬†¬†¬†¬† but why are we supposed to be ‘self centred’, ‘selfish’, ‘unintelligent’ and ‘racist’?

    If I was capable of being offended, I’d be kicking your door in right now! B-)

    However, knowing that you ‘stayers’ only have personal attacks to resort to in order to justify your lack of any real case for staying in, I can forgive you! :rose:

  • #225686

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Well kp, my post is not a personal attack on any specific person. Having had discussions with several people over the last few months I believe that leavers can be classified in several groups including those I mentioned and those who genuinely think things will be better for all with a Brexit.

    Self centred: England better and don’t care about anybody else.

    Selfish those who do not care for those who might loose their jobs.

    Unintelligent those who take at face value much anti EU sentiment that is written in the Mail, Sun, Telegraph etc that the UK will be better or some leave campaigners/leaders and ignore for example nine out of ten economic predictions and BofE warnings and stock market falls as the leave polls gain ground. Points such as those raised by Ian are ignored.

    Racist (I consider ukip to be a high proportion of bigots or racists but nevertheless…) a high proportion of leavers in places of high immigration (such as many Northern England towns) despite the immigration being mainly non EU but of various colours and non Christian religions.

    Now that is only a significant section of leavers as there are those who, probably you too, who consider it not to be a black and white situation, many grey areas and unknowns about leaving or staying and the balance falls one way or the other.

    I am not a rabid stayer as you insultingly call me :-) but have weighed the balance of opportunity, impact and risks and come down on the side of stay. I would not have that opinion if I had just listened to the poor leave campaign leaders!! :negative:

    So not a personal attack, just a reflection of experience, and it would be good to hear, if not for reasons of reducing immigration, why you are a rabid leaver? :whistle:

    You are welcome at my door anytime provided you bring a full bottle! :yes:   :good:   :rose:

  • #225690

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    SJS…. WHY HASN’T ADMIN GIVEN US THE OPTION OF A BIG YAWN EMOJI FOR POSTS LIKE THIS?…. IN FACT FOR ANY POST THAT ISN’T MINE OR DOESN’T AGREE WITH MY POINT OF VIEW? B-)

    ONE WEARING A KILT WOULD BE EXTRA USEFUL FOR WHEN I NEED TO RESPOND TO ANY JOCKS ON THE BOARD WHO HAVE THE TIMERITY TO DISAGREE WITH MY VIEWS, OR JUST FAIL TO SEND ME A BOTTLE OF SOME EXTRAVAGENT SINGLE MALT BEFORE THEY EXPECT ME TO LISTEN TO THEM DRONING ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON…….. GET THE IDEA? :wacko:

    ANYWAY, FOR SAKE OF BOTH CLARITY AND BREVITY, I’LL STICK MY RESPONSES AMONGST KOLOS TEXT BELOW IN CAPITAL LETTERS WHICH MAY ALSO HELP HIM REMEMBER THAT MY COMMENTS BEING IN CAPITAL LETTERS ARE BIGGER THAN HIS TEXT AND SO MORE ACCURATE AND MORE IMPORTANT! :good:

     

    Well kp, my post is not a personal attack on any specific person.

    NO… IT’S A PERSONAL ATTACK ON ANYBODY WHO DOESN’T AGREE WITH THE ‘stay’ GROUP!

    Having had discussions with several people over the last few months I believe that leavers can be classified in several groups including those I mentioned and those who genuinely think things will be better for all with a Brexit.

    Self centred: England better and don‚Äôt care about anybody else.RUBBISH! NOT SO….. CAN’T STAND THE PLACE AND WOULD MUCH RATHER BE IN GREECE…. ANYWAY, YOU’RE A SCOT, SO YOU CAN’T TALK. :whistle:

    Selfish those who do not care for those who might loose their jobs. RUBBISH! WHY WILL PEOPLE LOSE THEIR JOBS? PEOPLE WHO WOULD BE LOSING THEIR JOBS WILL CONTINUE TO LOSE THEIR JOBS AND THOSE WHO WOULD BE GETTING NEW JOBS WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO! NO MAGICAL CHANGE!

    Unintelligent those who take at face value much anti EU sentiment that is written in the Mail, Sun, Telegraph etc that the UK will be better or some leave campaigners/leaders and ignore for example nine out of ten economic predictions and BofE warnings and stock market falls as the leave polls gain ground. RUBBISHY, RUBBISH! 9 OUT OF 10 ECONOMISTS???? NOW YOU’RE JUST DOING WHAT THE ‘stayers’ DO…. WHICH IS TO MAKE UP STATISTICS….¬† I KNOW OF ZILLIONS OF ECONOMISTS WHO SUPPORT LEAVING…… THOUGH I TAKE AS MUCH NOTICE OF THEM AS I DO OF THE ‘stayers’ ECONOMISTS, AS ECONOMISTS JUST LIKE ANY ECONOMIST CAN DO WHAT THEY LIKE WITH STATISTICS TO MAKE THEM SING THEIR SONG… YOU’VE HEARD OF THE SAYING THAT THERE ARE STATISTICS AND STATISTICS AND DAMN LIES?
    I’VE ACCESS TO ENDLESS ECONOMISTS IN MY BUSINESSES, BUT THEY’RE THE LAST PEOPLE I WOULD ASK TO TELL ME WHAT TO DO OR TO PLAN THE FUTURE…. THEY’RE GREAT FOR THE PAST AND THE PRESENT, BUT THEY DON’T DO THE FUTURE AND A BUSINESS WOULD GO NOWHERE IF IT LISTENED TO ECONOMISTS!

    Points such as those raised by Ian are ignored. Racist (I consider ukip to be a high proportion of bigots or racists but nevertheless‚Ķ) a high proportion of leavers in places of high immigration (such as many Northern England towns) despite the immigration being mainly non EU but of various colours and non Christian religions. RUBBISH! I’M ALL FOR SUPPORTING IMMIGRANTS AND BELIEVE THAT IMMIGRATION CAN BE GOOD FOR A COUNTRY…. WHAT I’M AGAINST, AS ARE MANY OTHER ‘LEAVERS’, IS UNCONTROLLED ‘FREE FOR ALL’ TYPE IMMIGRATION, WHICH IS PARAMOUNT TO CULTURAL AND ECONOMIC SUICIDE FOR ANY COUNTRY! PARTICULARLY WHEN THE CITIZENS DON’T HAVE A SAY IN IT!

    Now that is only a significant section of leavers as there are those who, probably you too, who consider it not to be a black and white situation, many grey areas and unknowns about leaving or staying and the balance falls one way or the other. I am not a rabid stayer as you insultingly call me :-) but have weighed the balance of opportunity, impact and risks and come down on the side of stay. I would not have that opinion if I had just listened to the poor leave campaign leaders!! :negative:

    FAR TOO MANY ‘UNKNOWNS’ BEING CLAIMED AS ‘KNOWNS’…. HOWEVER, FEAR OF THE UNKNOWN SHOULD NEVER, EVER BE USED AS A REASON NOT TO MOVE FORWARDS OR REFUSE TO ACCEPT SOMETHING!!

    I’M MORE AFRAID OF THE ‘KNOWN’ CONSEQUENCES OF STAYING IN THE EU, RATHER THAN THE UNKNOWN, SPECULATIVE AND SENSATIONALISED POTENTIAL CONSEQUENCES OF LEAVING!

    So not a personal attack, just a reflection of experience, and it would be good to hear, if not for reasons of reducing immigration, why you are a rabid leaver? :whistle:

    YES IT WAS… I’M EXTREMELY HURT BY YOUR PERSONAL ATTACK ON ME AND CRIED MYSELF TO SLEEP LAST NIGHT AND HAVEN’T EATEN SINCE I READ YOUR COMMENTS….. I’M JUST NOT SURE HOW YOU COULD POSSIBLY MAKE IT UP TO ME? :scratch:

    You are welcome at my door anytime provided you bring a full bottle! :yes: :good: :rose:

      ONLY IF YOU SEND ME A FULL CASE FIRST! :yahoo:

    :heart: :rose:

  • #225692

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Well kp and I seem to be the only two trying to debate one of the bigger decisions the UK public have to make….sad really.

    Surprised he seems to think it is a personal attack. Not so. I have simp!y put forward what I have experienced. I could equally rubbish some of the claims made by some stayers who mention possible results of Brexit as nothing but gloom. A personal attack would need to be to specific individuals or groups and as both sides are made up of several groups and lots of individuals……..their views range from blinkered vision to those who struggle to make any sense of the arguments!

    The fact that you, kp, say you would rather be in Greece does not answer the issue I raise that there are many little Englanders in the leave camp even though there are some too who are not! Are Scots not entitled to opinions?

    So ignore the economists, all those around the world who chip in with their stay advice such as those inward investors who currently have clauses in their contracts that they can pull out upon Brexit or are now choosing to invest in Ireland to better ensure they have access the the world’s biggest trading block, the EU. Ah jobs to loose! Businesses to close including those who rely on immigrants. OK, not all definite but there would be some, it is not worth the risk for just hopeful optimism of what amount to wishes and undefined consequences of ideas. No business plan should be based upon that! Who would risk it? Certainly investors are taking a dim view!

    Migration is two way, some to UK some to Spain, France Greece etc etc. If you believe in controlled immigration, do you also believe in controlled emigration as that can be detrimental too? What is the control criteria you wish? Numbers? Percentage of the population? Qualifications? Skills? Those who are not going to be competitive with indigenous populations? Those who meet specific criteria such as has been mentioned in the Aussie points system? Apply to new immigrants or second and subsequent generations too? Time limitations? Come now be specific about what are the good and bad points of immigration and how only the good ones would be achieved.

    Yes there are consequences of  staying in the EU, most of which we know, are slow to change and we have an input to those changes. There will be opportunities if we leave (perhaps you can list those that are definite?) and detrimental consequences such as the time it will take to negotiate leaving (Greenland example) and the possible long time to get new trade agreements. You should know that business likes stability or at least predictability and shots in the dark need to be potentially enormously beneficial to take the risk. Cost benefit analysis of leaving vs the status quo? Come; do not hide your light under a bushel!

    So exceedingly sorry you cannot sleep as a result of a few words (OK more than a few :yes: ) but I hate to think how your health will be if you have to cope with the consequences of leaving :bye:   :heart:   :unsure:

    So sorry but the only case I can send you would be head cases¬† like Nigel or Boris :yahoo: ¬† ūüėȬ† I’ll need all my booze in case of an EU exit vote and the then prospective second Scotland leave referendum :negative:

  • #225693

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    I think that the real elephant is the TIPP aggreement but nobody seems to be pushing it. The Eurocrats are very keen to sign up even though it will be detrimental to many countries. The Yanks are keen because it means their financial guys will be able to operate here without the restraints they have in the USA. Their health companies will be able to privatise Nation health services and their companies can sue national governments, as Phillip Morris is doing in Norway.

    Their agro business will be able to force their nasty  chemicals on us.

    |Sadly even if they vote to leave, Cameron will be on the next plane out to sign his own TIPP.

     

    It is so close at the moment that I fear it will depend on the news just prior to voting day when the undecided enter the voting booths.

    Obviously as I have just moved here,  I want a stay result but if I was still in the UK I would tend towards leaving as I think Brussels has too much power and they have never been able to get their accounts signed off.

  • #225694

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Jo, an honest assessment and a refreshing degree of honesty in admitting that your vote is purely on the basis of self-interest, in voting ‘stay’, for no other reason other than fear of your position in Greece if the UK do leave the EU.

    I would say, vote leave for the real reasons you mention (amongst many others) and don’t worry about losing your status in Greece, as Greece would most definately not kick out the Brits if we left the EU and would probably be close behind us!
    Also, IF Cameron were still in power after a ‘leave’ vote, he may indeed be on the next plane to arrange some dodgy dave deal with the yanks, but fortunately, he wouldn’t be around long enough to do so and anybody else taking power would be treading very carefully due to a renewed fear amongst politicians of the voting classes, after the demonstration of people power in leaving the EU.
    Apart from all that, it’s unlikely that the EU would survive too long if the UK were to leave anyway……
    In fact, that is an admission made by many who say ‘stay’ and it only highlights what a weak and dodgy empire it is, that it could fall because one country left!

     

  • #225697

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    At last one valid reason to vote leave…..

    Then along the lines of his argument against stayers (speculation on unknowns) KP shoots himself in the foot by suggesting UK after Brexit would rush into similar foolish Tipp type agreements, fail to achieve one and then be ” careful ” which translates in politics and deals into a long time! :yahoo:

    At least we now have a single argument based upon current facts to support leave though TIPP is not yet agreed, is it? No sign of the migration argument controls we are told we need though! :-(

  • #225698

    sundodger
    Participant
    Homeric

    Ok…I’m out of the woodwork & no longer sitting on the fence on this one!

    I have not been out of the UK for over fifteen years & so am still entitled to vote in this referendum. I have however, after due consideration decided that as a non resident, I will NOT do so & I leave it to others to decide the fate of the nation. I would hate to be blamed for my casting vote :-(

    As an opinion only, however, as a non resident patriot (Not ex pat) Leaving aside the issue of immigration, various financial woes & an impending attack from Mars. I cannot believe that the issue of a sovereign nation, is not forefront in this discussion! I truly believe that to remain is a vote for a fast track into the “United States Of Europe” and NOTHING¬† will prevent this.

    As ex UK forces, I have noted the very strong resentment to an “in” vote amongst similar folk and can mainly put this down to Patriotism, a trait which has protected Great Britain for centuries and now this is being labelled as both outdated and in some corners, rascist!

    The run up to this referendum, has been a disgusting display of fear & lies (From both camps) I only hope that on Thursday 23rd. folk can truly vote with their hearts and not petty personal gain. History will now decide who was right.

     

  • #225699

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Hurrah! Sunnyboy is resurrected!  :good: Good to get yet another opinion.

    Nothing wrong with Patriotism unless it spills over to xenophobia or racism or just simply hate that we have seen in many countries and the unjustified violence that follows!

    As you will agree I have a different opinion regarding the outcome of staying and do not feel that the EU will fast do anything. More the case of change being required and feet being dragged! There are also many patriots in other countries who will resist a united states. Not only that giving up a little of ” sovereignty” (only a little as we still have rights to leave EU control as demonstrated by this referendum and still remains most of our historical laws of the parts of the UK) has given rise to a general level of stability not seen for over seventy years. Yet again though not all is rosy but on balance……

    Surely though Sunny, as patriotism is love for ones own homeland and vigorous support thereof, you should vote?

     

    • #225702

      the reiver
      Participant
      Oracle

      As I said previously I can have no say whatsoever in the referendum. ¬† ¬† However, I would like to know how much this political charade is costing AND who’s paying for it.

      Both sides are talking through their @rses with threats and counter threats, and whatever the result, there will be major bloodletting among the political establishment, with the leaders being swept away. ¬†Even Boris is now backing Call Me Dave as PM ! (It’s called hedging your bets and covering your back).

       

      :scratch:

       

  • #225704

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Well….. it is a mess of ‘outs’ and ‘ins’ opinions to be sure……

    Pleased to know that later this week, it’ll all be concluded, then we’ll all have to find something else to argue about!

    Though, somehow, I have the feeling that whatever the outcome, this is unlikely to be the end of this debate!
    Never mind….. it’ll all be okay if everybody votes OUT! :good:

  • #225706

    the reiver
    Participant
    Oracle

    everybody out

    Miriam Karlin in “The Rag Trade”, for all you wrinklies out there. ¬† :yes:

    :bye:

     

  • #225709

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Oh geez you are showing your age. I did not even get to see the progress about Tenner Fashions as I was still a figment of my Dad’s imagine………looks, too late!

    A comedy of it’s time a bit like “on the buses”, part of our Great Britain!

    • #225710

      the reiver
      Participant
      Oracle

      Common (market) denominator — Reg Varney, and he was the first man to use an ATM (1967).

      :wacko:

       

  • #225711

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Only one last day of life as you know it…… then……. well in the immortal words of ‘Thunderbirds’, “anything can happen in the next 24 hours”! :yahoo:

    So will it be the end of civilisation as we know it?

    Or will it be the beginning of civilisation? :scratch:

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