Stephen Hawking says GOd did not create the universe…

Forums Nothing to do with Greece Utterly Off Topic Stephen Hawking says GOd did not create the universe…

This topic contains 137 replies, has 18 voices, and was last updated by  kiwi 5 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #156679

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Well my question is, then who did. Having witnessed a tiny baby these past days, I can’t help feeling it is nothing short of a miracle. When I look around at the many amazing creatures on earth, again I can’t help thinking that surely an accident didn’t cause such perfection, such symetry.

    I don’t know who it was or what name to call the designer be it, he she or it, but definitely someone needs to give me a better explanation than an accidental bang in physics.

    Other planets? Yup sure to be inhabited in the grand schem of things, who knows,maybe they all look like green globs and slide around like amoebas. Bottom line, no one can give an answer with any clear proof.

  • #183630

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    @kiwi wrote:

    Well my question is, then who did.

    Nobody. Simple as that.

    GiH Admin

  • #183626

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Ahhh at last people coming out of the woodwork, I figured this subject would draw a few comments.

    Did I mention that I am not for or against the theories…just standing in the middle tring to figure which line to cross over to.

  • #183627

    sundodger
    Participant
    Homeric

    Ah ! … One of lifes little mysteries ! I fear that we are not yet on a high enough rung to even understand the question, let alone the answer. I suppose it can be likened to an amoeba solving a problem involving differential calculus… Or perhaps not? As life itself is a more drop in the ocean of infinity & infinity is well… Infinate – or is it ? We will either all soon enough perhaps be party to the answer, or not? – as the case may be ! I assume that this has been a great help in your search for enlightenment? – But if not, I see that a number of ads by Google have spung up now on this thread of a God related nature – Perhaps therefore, Google & God are somehow entwined? :))

  • #183628

    nimbus
    Participant
    Homeric

    Pleased to see that ridiculous avatar was a passing fancy :roll:

  • #183629

    sundodger
    Participant
    Homeric

    Was just having a weekend off Nimpoo & thought I would leave my old chum Bob at the tiller…. Besides – Are we ALL not just ridiculous avatars, passing down life’s highway, to that big car park at the end ? πŸ˜•

  • #183632

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    This threads far to , filo,…philos….. :angry: :angry: :angry:


    Philosan for me! πŸ˜›

    Tell me do I need to reserve a parking ticket for my car in that car park? And if so where is the machine? ❓

  • #183624

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    How disappointing. I came here for a good argument!

    GiH Admin

  • #183625

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    No you didn’t! :finger:

  • #183621

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    Yes I did!

    GiH Admin

  • #183622

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Ha bunch of scaredy cats, no one wants to fight with you sjs…and I thought this would spark a bit of controversy and argument. Well no matter how expert any one claims to be, there won’t be a winner to this argument.

  • #183623

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    Alright then since no one wants to argue about that… er… why don’t women stay in the kitchen where they belong?

    Anyone?

    Ok…

    That Tony Blair – nice bloke. Good idea to invade Iraq.

    Anyone?

    GiH Admin

  • #183620

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Invading Iraq…..GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! Trying to enfoce Western morals and standards on the middle East…Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

    God? WEll someone out there sure managed a fantastically beautiful earthful of animals and species of plants etc all very complex and difficult to assemble accidentally. If some want to call him God…OK.

    I would even settle for a bunch of convivial aliens from a distant planet with knowledge light years away from ours, experimenting on their pet planet earth, just as NASA does with mars

    ….use by date being 2012?

  • #183635

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    There was an excellent article by Professor Jonh Lennox….. really worth reading……. makes lots of sense!
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1308599/Stephen-Hawking-wrong-You-explain-universe-God.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

    By the way SJS…. did you know that God gave you (and Hawking) a response a few thousand years ago? He speaks directly to you and about you in Psalm 14, verse 1 where He says, “The FOOL has said in his heart, there is no God”……….. :mrgreen:

  • #183636

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    @KP wrote:

    By the way SJS…. did you know that God gave you (and Hawking) a response a few thousand years ago? He speaks directly to you and about you in Psalm 14, verse 1 where He says, “The FOOL has said in his heart, there is no God”……….. :mrgreen:

    I think you’re confusing “God” with “someone who wrote the Bible”! ic_wink

    But anyway, using the Bible to justify the existence of God is utterly illogical. Your argument is that the Bible says God exists. And who wrote the Bible? God. Therefore God exists because God says he does.

    I am going to write a book saying SJS is God. And because the book says it – and I am God – then it must be true.

    You see my point?

    GiH Admin

  • #183637

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    I can see your point, but it’s a spurious one! You’ve got it the wrong way round!
    I believe that the Bible is true because I have come to believe in God, not because the Bible says so, but because I discovered the truth! Consequently, I believe The Bible when it says in 1 Peter 1, verses 20 & 21 that although the Bible was written by men chosen by God, He dictated to them and they wrote what He told them to write!

    Anyway, forget all that if you have a hard time accepting it……. you don’t say if you read through Prof. Lennox article….. he makes the argument far better than I and makes a great argument, even for an old sceptic such as yourself! :mrgreen:

  • #183638

    Angela
    Participant
    Neophyte

    For me, the bottom line is we just don’t know how the Earth and the universe were created. I do not see a need to replace that knowledge with a belief in anything. We just have to be patient until we work it out.

    I would like to see scientists professing that God was responsible scientifically prove it was God, not Allah, the ancestor spirits, or Eurynome…

  • #183639

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Angela…… I know that you and others may think it’s rather arrogant of me to state that I KNOW how the earth and the universe were created, but it’s no different to you speaking so positively for all of us saying that “we don’t know…….” I do know…….

    There are many, many famous scientists, such as Professor Lennox who wrote that article which I recommended and which I hope that you read, who believe that God created the earth and the universe!

    Stephen Hawking and other who are portrayed as ‘knowing’, will be the first to tell you that their ‘findings’ are THEORIES, not proven facts! Stephen Hawking is a theorist…… really not much more than the philosophers of old who would sit around and pontificate on the origins of the world and the meaning of life, etc….. that’s why their findings are referred to as ‘theories’ in science!

    Whereas a Bible believing Christian refers to what we believe as FACTS! :mrgreen:

  • #183640

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    @KP wrote:

    Whereas a Bible believing Christian refers to what we believe as FACTS! :mrgreen:

    Facts can be proved. You are not able to prove the existence of God.

    GiH Admin

  • #183641

    brenda
    Participant
    Hoplite

    I can’t believe I’m agreeing with KP 😯 . And I agree with Prof. Lennox. Those of us who “know” don’t have to be convinced. And those who don’t “know” may never be convinced.
    SJS – you’re right. I can’t prove the existence of God. But I don’t feel a need to do that. He has proven himself to me many, many times. And I’ve never been a Bible reader and haven’t been to church since I was a child.

  • #183642

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    That’s the sad thing…. so many believe the lie that God cannot be proved! Of course He can! It’s just that people only take on what they want to believe and won’t look any deeper in case they’re proved wrong! :))
    People are mostly like the type of people who have very fixed and firm opinions on subject of which they have no first hand experience. Such as people who say, “I would never buy x make of ‘whatever’ as it’s no good and ‘such-and-such’ make is much better”…. Yet when asked if they’ve ever owned one of those they deride, they say that they haven’t and would never do so as they’re rubbish!! πŸ˜•

    Come on….. there are millions of highly intelligent, super cool people who believe in God….. surely we can’t all have been stupid enough to believe a con? :mrgreen: (Did you like how I slipped myself in with those ‘highly intelligent’ and ‘super cool’ people?). :mrgreen:

  • #183643

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    @KP wrote:

    That’s the sad thing…. so many believe the lie that God cannot be proved! Of course He can! It’s just that people only take on what they want to believe and won’t look any deeper in case they’re proved wrong! :))

    Great. Please post proof of God.

    GiH Admin

  • #183644

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Just as you can’t decide if the car really is rubbish until you’ve tried driving it and examined it for yourself, so it is with God!
    Take the time to study The Bible for yourself, then you’ll be able to tell us what you think! I would never dream of evaluating one of your films based on what others said about them on the forum or even on the basis of seeing a short clip, so it is again with God! :mrgreen:

  • #183645

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    Sorry, KP, that’s not proof. You are talking about opinion.

    You said that God can be proved and I am still waiting for it!

    GiH Admin

  • #183646

    Angela
    Participant
    Neophyte

    Angela…… I know that you and others may think it’s rather arrogant of me to state that I KNOW how the earth and the universe were created, but it’s no different to you speaking so positively for all of us saying that “we don’t know…….” I do know…….

    There are many, many famous scientists, such as Professor Lennox who wrote that article which I recommended and which I hope that you read, who believe that God created the earth and the universe!

    No, I don’t think it’s arrogant. I’m happy for anyone to state their belief. My point about the scientists is that they derive their credibility on this issue from being scientists. As scientists, they obviously accept the value of the scientific method. I would therefore like them to back up their belief in God with evidence that follows the principles of scientific investigation.

    I did read most of the article you linked to. I did not see any scientific evidence.

  • #183647

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    SJS….. of course what I said is not ‘proof’, I told you what you personally have to do to find that ‘proof’ which you’re looking for!

    Angela….. again, like SJS, if you want ‘scientific’ proof, whatever that might mean to you, you’re going to have to examine the source for yourself!

    May seem like a bit of a cop out for my not giving you any ‘proof’, but you do need to search for yourself! “Knock and the door will open, Seek and you will find, ask it will be given to you”……. If I do the searching for you, I find my answers, which I already did…. you have to do this for yourself. That means a commitment of time and effort on your part! :mrgreen:

  • #183648

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    @KP wrote:

    SJS….. of course what I said is not ‘proof’, I told you what you personally have to do to find that ‘proof’ which you’re looking for!

    Angela….. again, like SJS, if you want ‘scientific’ proof, whatever that might mean to you, you’re going to have to examine the source for yourself!

    May seem like a bit of a cop out for my not giving you any ‘proof’, but you do need to search for yourself! “Knock and the door will open, Seek and you will find, ask it will be given to you”……. If I do the searching for you, I find my answers, which I already did…. you have to do this for yourself. That means a commitment of time and effort on your part! :mrgreen:

    Now this made me smile.

    Total and utter cop-out.

    You see, KP, that proof needs to be objective. I looked and couldn’t find any. That means that if it works for you and not for me then it’s not proof. It’s opinion.

    So… still waiting for proof of God which (as I think we all knew all along) is impossible to provide.

    GiH Admin

  • #183649

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Poppycock! You’rethe one after a cop-out! :mrgreen:
    If it works for me, there’s no reason why it shouldn’t work for you also!
    It’s just very clear that rather than taking up my challenge to seriously investigate the truth, instead you’re investing all your intellect and time into finding ways to play with words to get out of spending any serious time on this! ……… Well, it’s your prerogative and your choice, but if you won’t invest in it, you’ll never find the truth and gain the benefits of the investment! 8) ………… A great shame as there are amazing ‘profits’ to be had! :mrgreen:

  • #183650

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    @KP wrote:

    Poppycock! You’rethe one after a cop-out! :mrgreen:
    If it works for me, there’s no reason why it shouldn’t work for you also!

    Ah, the old “you must be doing something wrong” argument.

    Now if I turned around and told you that I just realised that my left toe was God and that it created the univserse and the reason you don’t accept that is because you aren’t looking hard enough then I’m sure you’d protest. It works for me, though, so it must work for you if you look hard enough! πŸ˜†

    @KP wrote:

    It’s just very clear that rather than taking up my challenge to seriously investigate the truth, instead you’re investing all your intellect and time into finding ways to play with words to get out of spending any serious time on this! ……… Well, it’s your prerogative and your choice, but if you won’t invest in it, you’ll never find the truth and gain the benefits of the investment! 8) ………… A great shame as there are amazing ‘profits’ to be had! :mrgreen:

    No, I just want you to provide proof that there’s a God as you stated there is a few posts back.

    Asking me to do the work and then when I can’t find the proof dismissing it as my fault is rather desperate if you ask me!

    GiH Admin

  • #183651

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Yet more poppycock! You’re not doing anything wrong at all!!! Because you’re not doing anything at all!!! πŸ˜•
    Why do you insist that I must take responsibility to provide you with your own proof? I’ve already explained that you need to do this for yourself!
    You sound like many students at school who insist that teachers should successfully teach them everything through some sort of osmosis! They simply want to sit in a classroom and not study or do anything for themselves, but still expect to have learnt everything at year end! 😯

    Now come on sjs….. don’t be a lazy boy! Clearly you have plenty of time on your hands at the moment as you’re at work but online throughout the day! So invest that lost time into some learning! Either that, or it’s off to the headmaster’s study on judgement day! :mrgreen:

  • #183652

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    Ok KP, have you investigated the truth that my big toe is God? Go on – if you want the truth, you must look for it.

    Because I have looked into your God and it’s all rubbish IMHO.

    So… there we are. No proof at all that your God exists, and my big toe God theory still intact because you haven’t looked hard enough!

    Oh, by the way, if you want proof that your God is false, go an see the website about the Flying Spaghetti Monster which, if you read it thoroughly and accept the truth into your heart, you will find shows that the universe was created by the Him! **

    ** You see what I’ve done here; if your argument about me searching for proof is valid, then mine is equally valid, even though it contradicts yours…

    GiH Admin

  • #183653

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Come on big toe god…… admit that you’re just bored at work and was recently inspired to an argument about anything by watching Monty Python again!
    So you want a 10 minute argument, or a one hour argument? :))

    If you would like to send me any info of your big toe being a god, then I’d be happy to study it for as long as it takes and come back with my thoughts!
    Meanwhile, if I were to send you the whole Bible and other publications which will help you discover the one I believe to be the real God would you also do the same? :mozilla_innocent:

  • #183654

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    KP, I’m not going to do your work for you. I’ve seen the Bible and dismissed it, read the literature and dismissed it and spoken to people and made up my own mind.

    I can’t find any proof of God.

    Now, you’re saying there is proof. Well it’s up to you to prove it to us all then because, hey, maybe I’m wrong!

    So we’re here waiting… Come on KP, give us something to work with here!

    GiH Admin

  • #183657

    nimbus
    Participant
    Homeric

    Scoring a tiebreak game

    At a score of 6–6, a set is often determined by one more game called a “seven point tiebreak.” Points are counted using ordinary numbering. The set is decided by the player who wins at least seven points in the tiebreak but also has two points more than his opponent.

    A hush falls over the court, the umpire calls time, the players eye each other with nervous anticipation, we look on….. :roll:

  • #183655

    the reiver
    Participant
    Oracle

    Question :- who is the first man mentioned in The Bible ?

    8)

  • #183656

    Assimilate
    Participant
    Homeric

    Chap One

    What is the first instance of beer drinking in the Bible?

  • #183634

    the reiver
    Participant
    Oracle

    Good answer, but wrong. ic_confused

    Must be something about He brew ic_wink

    8)

  • #183633

    nimbus
    Participant
    Homeric

    Heard of “quick brew”….. he brew? 😐

  • #183631

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Well glad to finally see some people surface on the forum! Religion and politics usually do the trick.

    I believe that something/someone pretty amazing has planned and ordered this planet full of millions of different species that all continue to evolve pretty much as they were millions of years ago. Looking closely at nature and the symbiosis between living things is a miracle in itself. It’s difficult to believe it was all an accident just as it is difficult to look at a human being and the intricacies of how we function…the complexity is stunning.

    No one has the correct answer. Most are still searching and marvelling.

  • #183658

    Assimilate
    Participant
    Homeric

    Q. What is the first instance of beer drinking in the Bible?
    A. Peter stood up and took Courage

  • #183659

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    What did Moses drive?

    Well according to the Bible he came down Mount Sinai in his Triumph.

    GiH Admin

  • #183660

    DayGloScooter
    Participant
    Neophyte

    I see that this thread has turned to humour to deflect the conflict.
    You may not be aware of the widely demonstrated phenomenon that people with Faith, any Faith, score higher on any measure of contentment and happiness than non-believers.
    If you want to be happy, you should get religion, whether you believe in it or not. Unfortunately, if you don’t believe it, it won’t do you any good, so you need other people to reinforce your belief, and to ridicule those who doubt it.
    Personally, I’d love to believe, if only I could find a Faith that isn’t based solely on the principles

    • Obey our rules
    • Accept your miserable life without question
    • Spread our Faith
    • non-believers face unseen horrors

    Buddhism comes close, but I’m off to checkout the spaghetti monster.

  • #183661

    Assimilate
    Participant
    Homeric

    It wasn’t done to intentionally deflect the conflict. It’s just that religion is a joke anyway, so I thought I was on topic :))

  • #183662

    Pappa Ouzo
    Participant
    Neophyte

    After the news from the states we’ll be having the Muslims burning our bibles next

  • #183663

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Now, from a position sitting on the fence .ouch :(

    That’s a lot of religious folk upset (if they can be bothered to read the thread…..) and ‘many’ of use arguing black is white (and nowhere a shade of grey.

    There can never be and argument of science vs religion where we have a measurable outcome as to which on is correct (if in fact they are mutually exclusive!).

    Science is based upon pereceived facts and laws. However as time progresses we come to recognise that some of these are just not true, when we learn better. So what was ‘correct’ often is then ‘proven’ to be ‘incorrect’ or at worst incomplete. ic_confused Any one old enough to remember the text book and atoms are the smallest particles in nature. No longer true! Light travels in straight lines – or does it? There never used to be Zero until the Arabs (I think) invented it and as for the square root of minus 1……

    Religion is a belief and thus cannot be proven. It depends upon people having faith. Quite clearly the beliefs are often based upon historical writings/stories and more modern interpretations, However even from the same ‘source’ different belief results, often widely differing and the excuse for wars. ic_shock ..but religious belief certainly can suggest reasons for those things science can still not explain that keep people content, or give an aim in life (for better or worse).

    So you might as well ask how many apples equals a car and try to prove the answer given is correct or incorrect! πŸ˜‰ incomparable and very much open to personal interpretation and opinion……………

    Discuss.

  • #183664

    the reiver
    Participant
    Oracle

    I think that KP, having tired of winding folk up, has headed for Rosslyn Chapel near Edinburgh to recuperate. ic_wink

    BTW, “James” is the first man mentioned in The Bible, as Kolo can verify if he opens his copy.

    8)

  • #183665

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Certainly in bad times, religion can be a comfort, a crutch to lean on and hope. Years back when I used to do stints at hospitals visiting folk in spare time, we were told to be religion neutral, however many older people in their last days often asked if you would say a prayer for them. What to answer? WOuld you say no at a time like that?

    I think believing in the possibilty there is something else ‘above,’ gives people hope and that hope brings positive thought and thats got to be better than being ill and ultra adamant that the end has come and there is nothing but cold ground and worms.

    No one knows the answer so erring on the side that gives the most comfort seems a simple solution. Best that people believe what gives them the most peace, until otherwise informed… even if it’s a toe god.

  • #183666

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    I think Rosslyn, however close to his spirit -ual home and destination might be a tad busy with tourists these days!

    but possibly the Samyeling Centre would be a better bet?

    http://www.samyeling.org/

    Ah! Riever, I guess that would be the King James Bible would it? i.e. that translated under the instruction of King James IV of Scotland when he also became James I of England, thus giving the meddlesome Church of England something to keep them occupied and make them a bit more puritan (I paraphrase from WikiP) . Took a big team several years to complete so perhaps they should have done more Greek grammar or employed Dr KyprosTofallis? πŸ˜†

  • #183667

    the reiver
    Participant
    Oracle

    James VI actually. But, strange that you should mention James IV because, according to Wiki today, he was killed at Flodden on this day in 1315.

    Eskdalemuir, the wettest place in the UK, can’t see KP finding it, and they don’t stock ouzo :unibrow:

    8)

  • #183668

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    @kiwi wrote:

    Certainly in bad times, religion can be a comfort, a crutch to lean on and hope.

    I tend to the belief that people don’t lean on religion but rather they rely on it because they don’t feel able to face the possibility that there’s nothing out there and nothing to follow.

    For thousands of years religion has been merely a political tool to keep people in check and keep a few in power; it hasn’t changed much in all this time.

    But once you are free of the shackles of a unreliably constructed belief system then you can get on with enjoying your life, making your own decisions and thinking for yourself. Which, let’s face it, scares the willies out of most people!

    GiH Admin

  • #183669

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    I agree with what you write sjs especially when it comes to control of the masses, but am also of the opinion that whatever works to make a person feel happy and hopeful, then so be it. Each to his own method of fulfillment. I think that many who don’t go to church or religiously follow the bible etc, still gain solace from the hope of something out there.

    When you look at mankinds history, there was always some sort of praying to the Gods or sacrifices to something or other in all cultures. Anyone that prays in any religion, always looks up at the sky, it’s been that way for millions of years. We all await for proof but meantime most will continue to sit on the fence and look upwards for a sign.

    Even when we are angry and swear and throw up our hands in disgust, we look up, as if for divine intervention.

  • #183670

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Sorry all…. I haven’t dropped out of this conversation, but it’s just that we’re in the process of getting back to the UK for a while to return the 2 grandkids and travelling with 2 youngsters is rather tiring!
    I’ll pick up on the thread over the next few days and wind up sjs again! :mrgreen:

  • #183671

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Och, my Roman numeral typo….what a coincidence about that death date for James IV!

    Sounds like powers that be at work……… πŸ˜† rather than wrong power to the fingers!

    Seen those Buddists from SammyeLing out and about. The wet did not seem to affect them! well not that I could notice :roll:

  • #183672

    Ian
    Participant
    Homeric

    @kiwi wrote:

    …that whatever works to make a person feel happy and hopeful, then so be it…

    Couldn’t agree more.

    What bugs me is all those religious types who try to force their personal ‘truth’ on to everybody else.

    God or no God, I don’t care much either way but ‘religion’ and ‘the church’ irritate me no end. :angry:

  • #183673

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Maybe the buddhists have it sussed by believing God comes from within.

    Then….shall I stir it up a bit more. What about the Devil? Ouija boards and exorcisms and possessions etc.

    WHen I was a small child I remember visiting a house where the women all decided to do the ouija board thing. The men were inside playing cards and the house owner who was a Maori woman married to a Greek marked a cardboard with the alphabet etc and had yes /no on the board. and a glass. The room was dim. and she started to do her bit and ask it questions… I think one of the women was pregnant and the question was if it was a boy. I shall never forget watching that glass move without anyone touching it, to the bit that said no. Also remember the gasps of the others. We kids were meant to be inside playing but I was bored and sneaked in. I never forgot that glass moving on a solid table.

    If there is a God, then we are told there is also a devil.

  • #183674

    DayGloScooter
    Participant
    Neophyte

    The devil is essentially an extra designed to widen the appeal, but not really part of the original idea.
    Much like Scrappy-Doo.

  • #183675

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Well nice to see all the old regulars back and in top form. Was getting a bit thin on the ground here.

    So…the devil is an optional extra you say?

  • #183676

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    God? The Devil? Two sides of the same (fictitious) coin.

    GiH Admin

  • #183677

    DayGloScooter
    Participant
    Neophyte

    Upon reconsideration, my post suggesting that the Devil is an extra may have been inaccurate. He is valuable as a counter to the hero’s good. More like Officer Dibble!

  • #183678

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    :)) Am just picturing Officer Dibble with a fork in one hand and a pointy tail!

  • #183679

    stabitandsteer
    Participant
    Neophyte

    Quote from the devil as played by Robert DeNiro in the brilliant film ‘ Angel Heart ‘ …. “Seems like there’s just enough religion in the world for people to hate each other but not quite enough for them to love each other”

  • #183680

    jeanjeanie
    Participant
    Neophyte

    Did you hear about the atheist dyslexic insomniac?

    He lies awake at night wondering if there is a dog.

  • #183681

    sundodger
    Participant
    Homeric

    Strange that… I do the same, but always thought myself to be agnostic :))

  • #183682

    Ian
    Participant
    Homeric

    In the beginning there was man…

    and man created god…

  • #183683

    stabitandsteer
    Participant
    Neophyte

    Why do we say ‘touch wood’ for good luck , it wasn’t very lucky for Jesus was it ?

  • #183684

    stabitandsteer
    Participant
    Neophyte

    Ctime is rife among dyslexic arsonists

  • #183691

    muddyleopard
    Participant
    Neophyte

    @stabitandsteer wrote:

    Why do we say ‘touch wood’ for good luck , it wasn’t very lucky for Jesus was it ?

    :O

  • #183692

    stabitandsteer
    Participant
    Neophyte

    If knowledge really is power , how much do you think Stephen Hawking can bench press ?

  • #183693

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Croo-el !! :(

  • #183714

    stabitandsteer
    Participant
    Neophyte

    @kolofarthos wrote:

    Croo-el !! :(

    I know , I am going to Hell !

  • #183727

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @stabitandsteer wrote:

    Why do we say ‘touch wood’ for good luck , it wasn’t very lucky for Jesus was it ?

    That’s coz you don’t understand why he went to the cross… he was out to make it good for us, not himself! πŸ˜€
    And before you begin your pointless arguments again sjs, read through The Bible carefully and all will be revealed! Be far easier than arguing with me! And far better for you as well. ic_ugeek
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    So what d’you all think? Have I wound him up enough? :mrgreen:

  • #183694

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    @KP wrote:

    That’s coz you don’t understand why he went to the cross… he was out to make it good for us, not himself! πŸ˜€ And before you begin your pointless arguments again sjs, read through The Bible carefully and all will be revealed! Be far easier than arguing with me! And far better for you as well.

    Not for me, KP, I gave up reading fairy stories as a child. 😈

    GiH Admin

  • #183695

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    hahaha, what a surprise, you responded after all! :roll:
    Seems that you’re just selective about what you think are fairy tales! Especially if you read Stephen Hawking! :mrgreen:

  • #183696

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    @KP wrote:

    hahaha, what a surprise, you responded after all! :roll:
    Seems that you’re just selective about what you think are fairy tales! Especially if you read Stephen Hawking! :mrgreen:

    Oh come on KP, I was expecting something a little more thought out than that. I came here for a good argument!

    GiH Admin

  • #183697

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @sjs wrote:

    ……… Oh come on KP, I was expecting something a little more thought out than that. I came here for a good argument!

    You mean that there’s more to be said on the subject?
    How can I argue with a person who insists he’s right about a book he’s never read on a subject he’s never studied? πŸ˜• ……. I have no argument for that! :mrgreen:

  • #183698

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    @KP wrote:

    You mean that there’s more to be said on the subject?
    How can I argue with a person who insists he’s right about a book he’s never read on a subject he’s never studied? πŸ˜• ……. I have no argument for that! :mrgreen:

    Just two statements before the ad hom arguments come out – surely a record! πŸ˜†

    GiH Admin

  • #183699

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Now, now sjs, don’t go trying to hide behind ad hominem…. That can hardly be described as an ad hominem post! I’m simply stating that I cannot argue for the reason that there’s no basis to argue on given your intrascience to the core of our discussion! I have absoloutly no problem with you believing whatever you want to believe! Freedom of choice is at the core of the Christian faith, which can be difficult for most to understand as every other belief I know of insists that everybody must believe the way they do and many will punish you for not doing so if they get the chance!
    So, if you decide that you don’t want to believe in something which by your own admission you have never studied and have no interest in doing so, then so be it…… it’s your choice and I respect that, but you must also respect my choice not to argue it out with you! There is no personal attack in any of that. πŸ˜€

  • #183700

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    Ok, if you’d like to do this properly KP, perhaps you’d like to begin by proposing something about the exitance of God and then backing it up with a fact or two.

    GiH Admin

  • #183701

    stabitandsteer
    Participant
    Neophyte

    @sjs wrote:

    Ok, if you’d like to do this properly KP, perhaps you’d like to begin by proposing something about the exitance of God and then backing it up with a fact or two.

    Surely he must exist if we’ve all been arguing about him for the last 2000 odd years ? :)

  • #183702

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    As I’ve been known to say in the past sjs… “we don’t see things as they are, we see them as WE are”, and that’s the problem with ‘facts’. What is an uncontested fact to me may mean little to you!
    I do find it strange that so called ‘atheists’ or even ‘agnostics’ feel that they have to work so incredibly hard to persuade the world that God doesn’t exist when those who really do know that He exists are quite relaxed about it all. I like what ‘stabitandsteer’ says, there is a lot of truth in that!
    I would say that it takes an awful lot more faith not to believe in God, than to believe in Him. And I find it incredible that people so readily want to believe a self proclaimed ‘theorist’ such as Stephen Hawking who has absoloutly no proof that God does not exist beyond his own imaginings and no proof beyond some thought out theories in his mind about the universe, rather than thousands of years of millions of believers who have experienced God personally. It just doesn’t make sense to me. ic_confused

  • #183703

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    Um… so I’ll take that as a ‘no’ then.

    GiH Admin

  • #183704

    stabitandsteer
    Participant
    Neophyte

    @KP wrote:

    As I’ve been known to say in the past sjs… “we don’t see things as they are, we see them as WE are”, and that’s the problem with ‘facts’. What is an uncontested fact to me may mean little to you!
    I do find it strange that so called ‘atheists’ or even ‘agnostics’ feel that they have to work so incredibly hard to persuade the world that God doesn’t exist when those who really do know that He exists are quite relaxed about it all. I like what ‘stabitandsteer’ says, there is a lot of truth in that!
    I would say that it takes an awful lot more faith not to believe in God, than to believe in Him. And I find it incredible that people so readily want to believe a self proclaimed ‘theorist’ such as Stephen Hawking who has absoloutly no proof that God does not exist beyond his own imaginings and no proof beyond some thought out theories in his mind about the universe, rather than thousands of years of millions of believers who have experienced God personally. It just doesn’t make sense to me. ic_confused

    Stephen Hawking just stares at his keyboard all the time , apparently every other Sunday he watches F1 :)

  • #183705

    Ian
    Participant
    Homeric

    @KP wrote:

    …who has absolutely no proof that God does not exist …

    And that brings us back to the standard line of defence of the believers…

    They claim that it’s up to the un-believers to come up with undisputable proof that there is no god. πŸ˜•
    At the same time they refuse to come up with undisputable proof that there is. :roll: :roll:

    In my opinion he who claims that something exists will have to provide the proof; it is not unto the others to prove that his statement is false. :roll:

    Brings back the famous ‘teapot in space’ argument. :p

  • #183706

    stabitandsteer
    Participant
    Neophyte

    @KP wrote:

    @stabitandsteer wrote:
    Why do we say ‘touch wood’ for good luck , it wasn’t very lucky for Jesus was it ?

    That’s coz you don’t understand why he went to the cross… he was out to make it good for us, not himself! πŸ˜€

    Jesus went into the reception of a hotel and dropped 3 nails onto the counter asking ” Could you put me up for Easter ” ?

  • #183707

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Okay sjs, Ian, et al…. Lets do what Ian says we normally do and put the onus on you to tell me why you don’t believe there is a God and I promise to try and respond to each point! :))
    We do this Ian, because we know that as you come up with your reasons for there not being a God, we can directly address the issues and in doing so, you will see that you don’t have real reasons! :roll:
    That’s the theory anyway….. :mrgreen:

  • #183708

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    This isn’t a perfect metaphor, but it’ll do for a start.

    I have a box. I open the box and there’s no cake in it, not even a crumb in the corner. Not even when I look really, really hard with a magnifying glass. Therefore, we can say that to all intents and purposes, cake does not exist in the box. No matter how hard you try to convince me, I cannot believe there is cake in the box. Because there is none.

    And to be able to prove there is cake in the box you need to show me some of those elusive crumbs or maybe a bit of icing which fell off and is stuck to the bottom.

    But there isn’t any. So there isn’t any cake.

    And unfortunately, just because you believe there is cake in the box doesn’t make it so. Because the box is empty.

    GiH Admin

  • #183709

    Ian
    Participant
    Homeric

    @KP wrote:

    Okay sjs, Ian, et al…. Lets do what Ian says we normally do and put the onus on you to tell me why you don’t believe there is a God and I promise to try and respond to each point! :))
    We do this Ian, because we know that as you come up with your reasons for there not being a God, we can directly address the issues and in doing so, you will see that you don’t have real reasons! :roll:
    That’s the theory anyway….. :mrgreen:

    You’re missing the point! :roll: :roll:

    I’ll freely admit I cannot prove there is no god but the point that his non-existence cannot be proven is in no way proof that a god does exist. (the teapot in space, yet again)
    As I said, the believers are the one’s making the claim and then put it onto the un-believers to prove them wrong rather than coming up with anything solid to back their claim up.

    Again, you’re doing the same thing, you’re trying to lure me into coming up with proof for non-existence which you can then easily contradict. :p :p

    There is no such thing as proof for non-existence of whatever ridiculous entity people can think of.
    Again, the fact that non-existence cannot be proven is no proof of existence.

    So, I’ll meet you half-way; believing that their is no god is still a belief and not necessarily fact.

    The theory of creation, as the bible has it, has more evidence going against it (and for the evolution theory) than for it.
    That does not necessarily make the evolution theory fact but there is strong supporting evidence.
    So far the only ‘evidence’ I’ve heard for the creation (or intelligent design) theory is something along the lines of “I cannot believe that such complex lifeforms can develop by ‘pure chance’ so therefore there must be a ‘god / alien / whatever’ who created it”. :roll: :roll:

    In my view not being able to grasp or understand a concept does not prove that supernatural powers must be behind that concept, it just proves that my knowledge base does not extend far enough to understand it. 😳 😳

  • #183710

    muddyleopard
    Participant
    Neophyte

    Didn’t Chuck Norris create the universe then?

  • #183711

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Good start, but there are plenty of instruments (do you watch CSI?) which ‘sniff’ out residue/vapour/invisible traces of things which were previously in the box. Not everything which exists can be seen with the naked eye. But they leave a trace or other evidence of their existance. Even Stephen Hawking believes that as in astrophysics they find black holes and even planets by the what ISN’T there and by the ‘prescence’ they leave.
    So it is with God. There’s a lovely verse in the book of Romans which puts it well: “Ever since the creation of the world, God’s invisible qualitiesβ€”God’s eternal power and divine natureβ€”have been clearly seen, because they are understood through the things God has made.” (Romans 1:20)
    So I don’t believe that simply because you can’t see anything with your physical eyes and can only see an empty box it doesn’t exist! Even science itself doesn’t even believe that!
    The ‘traces’ are like the black hole which is proved by what can’t be seen, in that it has an impact on everything surrounding it and it’s effects are felt.

  • #183712

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    @KP wrote:

    Good start, but there are plenty of instruments (do you watch CSI?) which ‘sniff’ out residue/vapour/invisible traces of things which were previously in the box. Not everything which exists can be seen with the naked eye. But they leave a trace or other evidence of their existance. Even Stephen Hawking believes that as in astrophysics they find black holes and even planets by the what ISN’T there and by the ‘prescence’ they leave.
    So it is with God. There’s a lovely verse in the book of Romans which puts it well: “Ever since the creation of the world, God’s invisible qualitiesβ€”God’s eternal power and divine natureβ€”have been clearly seen, because they are understood through the things God has made.” (Romans 1:20)
    So I don’t believe that simply because you can’t see anything with your physical eyes and can only see an empty box it doesn’t exist! Even science itself doesn’t even believe that!
    The ‘traces’ are like the black hole which is proved by what can’t be seen, in that it has an impact on everything surrounding it and it’s effects are felt.

    Hmmm… so you believe despite their being no evidence we can find. Would that be an accurate statement?

    GiH Admin

  • #183713

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Wow just waited about 5 mins for GIH to connect so I have lost the thread of the argument I was about to join :( having been off air a bit whilst trying to fine the wherewithal to get another car……another silly drain on the resources!

    However, not perturbed…

    Crux of the matter is Christianity is a faith i.e. a belief and therefore does not need proof so it is pointless taking a scientific approach to look for facts. Nevertheless the Bible and Christians do try to couch the faith in factual terms as witnessed by the miracle of turning water into wine and the Witnesses that arrive periodically at my door with little pamphlets quoting the Bible extracts as proof – a book based upon corrupted stories handed down through generations and then written down by various participants and having variations into many languages/editions and interpretations by some ‘publishers’ with vested interests.

    Science on the other hand deals with (or ought to) facts that can therefore be proven and repeated by experiments after hypothesis and theory give rise to thoughts. So proof positive is needed. Not always quite true however as extrapolation is often used, and especially at the leading edge of understanding, interpretation and personal approaches. (sometimes with vested interests again!). So to take one example electrical current was proven to be the movement of electrons in a direction. Interestingly (to me however) is that therefore there were holes left by the electrons (from where they were) in their movement and we had holes moving in the opposite direction. A hole something that can not be seen, has no mass, no electrical charge etc. i.e. there is nothing there – BUT they exist!

    So I sit on the fence (ouch), believing blindly that I don’t know trying to reconcile all the different interpretation of God and whether the earth truly is unique, flat or whatever………

    Now teapots in outer space. Hey that’s a great idea. How have I missed that? When Virgin (the business not the mother!) gets into space can I look forward to a cuppa from one of these spacial containers? What brand of tea, where will I get the milk and how do I keep it in the cup?

    In summary I was hoping that the return of KP would help me believe I was not the only simpleton confused with the world and trying to find two pennies/cent to rub together…but here again my faith is proven wrong!

  • #183728

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    as much as I’m sure that sjs and kolofarts postings made to them, I’m afraid that I’m left confused by what you both mean! :roll: Was there a question somewhere in either of those 2 posts? :mrgreen:

  • #183729

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    @KP wrote:

    as much as I’m sure that sjs and kolofarts postings made to them, I’m afraid that I’m left confused by what you both mean! :roll: Was there a question somewhere in either of those 2 posts? :mrgreen:

    I’ll make it more explicit, KP. How can you believe in something of which there is no evidence?

    Or, if you think there is evidence, perhaps you’d like to tell us what that is.

    GiH Admin

  • #183730

    Ian
    Participant
    Homeric

    @sjs wrote:

    @KP wrote:
    as much as I’m sure that sjs and kolofarts postings made to them, I’m afraid that I’m left confused by what you both mean! :roll: Was there a question somewhere in either of those 2 posts? :mrgreen:

    I’ll make it more explicit, KP. How can you believe in something of which there is no evidence?

    Or, if you think there is evidence, perhaps you’d like to tell us what that is.

    That’s the point, isn’t it?
    That’s why it’s called ‘belief’ if there were any evidence it would be knowledge.

  • #183731

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    @Ian wrote:

    @sjs wrote:
    @KP wrote:
    as much as I’m sure that sjs and kolofarts postings made to them, I’m afraid that I’m left confused by what you both mean! :roll: Was there a question somewhere in either of those 2 posts? :mrgreen:

    I’ll make it more explicit, KP. How can you believe in something of which there is no evidence?

    Or, if you think there is evidence, perhaps you’d like to tell us what that is.

    That’s the point, isn’t it?
    That’s why it’s called ‘belief’ if there were any evidence it would be knowledge.

    Belief needs to be based on something otherwise it is stupidity.

    GiH Admin

  • #183732

    Ian
    Participant
    Homeric

    Hey… πŸ‘Ώ

    I’m a believer…

    I believe I’ll have another glass of wine.

    :mrgreen:

  • #183733

    poppy1
    Participant
    Homeric

    God I’m a believer in that too Ian, pour me one too please cheers

  • #183734

    stabitandsteer
    Participant
    Neophyte

    @kolofarthos wrote:

    Wow just waited about 5 mins for GIH to connect so I have lost the thread of the argument I was about to join :( having been off air a bit whilst trying to fine the wherewithal to get another car……another silly drain on the resources!

    However, not perturbed…

    Crux of the matter is Christianity is a faith i.e. a belief and therefore does not need proof so it is pointless taking a scientific approach to look for facts. Nevertheless the Bible and Christians do try to couch the faith in factual terms as witnessed by the miracle of turning water into wine and the Witnesses that arrive periodically at my door with little pamphlets quoting the Bible extracts as proof – a book based upon corrupted stories handed down through generations and then written down by various participants and having variations into many languages/editions and interpretations by some ‘publishers’ with vested interests.

    Science on the other hand deals with (or ought to) facts that can therefore be proven and repeated by experiments after hypothesis and theory give rise to thoughts. So proof positive is needed. Not always quite true however as extrapolation is often used, and especially at the leading edge of understanding, interpretation and personal approaches. (sometimes with vested interests again!). So to take one example electrical current was proven to be the movement of electrons in a direction. Interestingly (to me however) is that therefore there were holes left by the electrons (from where they were) in their movement and we had holes moving in the opposite direction. A hole something that can not be seen, has no mass, no electrical charge etc. i.e. there is nothing there – BUT they exist!

    So I sit on the fence (ouch), believing blindly that I don’t know trying to reconcile all the different interpretation of God and whether the earth truly is unique, flat or whatever………

    Now teapots in outer space. Hey that’s a great idea. How have I missed that? When Virgin (the business not the mother!) gets into space can I look forward to a cuppa from one of these spacial containers? What brand of tea, where will I get the milk and how do I keep it in the cup?

    In summary I was hoping that the return of KP would help me believe I was not the only simpleton confused with the world and trying to find two pennies/cent to rub together…but here again my faith is proven wrong!

    I can turn wine into water , does that mean I am the Anti-Christ ? And as Believers are warning that the physical embodiment of the Anti-Christ will bring war and devastation to our planet does that mean that the Anti-Mohammed will bring peace and love ?

  • #183735

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    As I said earlier on, quite a few posts ago now, you’re supposed to be asking the questions to keep this rolling. :roll: I’m quite happy with my situation in my faith, it’s you guys who seem to want to prove something, so lets get back on course if you’re serious about this, otherwise, I really don’t have a problem.

  • #183736

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    @KP wrote:

    As I said earlier on, quite a few posts ago now, you’re supposed to be asking the questions to keep this rolling. :roll: I’m quite happy with my situation in my faith, it’s you guys who seem to want to prove something, so lets get back on course if you’re serious about this, otherwise, I really don’t have a problem.

    Um… we did ask questions and you didn’t answer them. See above.

    Pity that, I was hoping for a decent argument but it’s all a bit one sided.

    GiH Admin

  • #183737

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    …eh..OK. So here’s a question.

    Which is the one true religion? Mine, yours or t’other persons?

  • #183738

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @kolofarthos wrote:

    …eh..OK. So here’s a question.

    Which is the one true religion? Mine, yours or t’other persons?

    Okay, a second serious question (I answered sjs’s a few days ago)….
    True Christianity and religion are at odds, because true Christianity doesn’t have rules, it has freedom. Jesus said: “I have come so that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.” (John 10:10)…… But religions are man made, full of rules and regulations and used by mankind either to control people or to feed their ego! Jesus was not into ‘religions’, He said that He had come to set us free and He laid into the religious!
    So true Christianity is about freedom to follow and serve The Lord in faith because I want to, not because some priest or mullah or anybody else is going to punish me or even kill me because I offend his version of religion! I decide that I want to follow and serve The Lord out of love for Him and in faith. As I’ve said before, He doesn’t force himself upon anybody and respects your free will to choose. You alone choose freely what or who you want to follow and you alone must ultimately accept the consequences of your choices, as in anything in life!
    But any religion which says that they’re the only true religion or any religion which says that unless you do this and this and this, you should run a mile from!
    So it’s not about religion or which is the ‘true’ religion, but simply about a belief in Jesus Christ and in deciding in faith to follow Him without all the rules of any religion.
    We will not be judged according to which church or religion we joined, but if we simply in faith accept the atoning death and resurrection of The Lord Jesus. That’s all…….
    So simple, yet hundreds of millions perish without The Lord because they simply can’t believe that it could possibly be so simple.

  • #183739

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    Since you won’t answer my questions, I’ll question your answers.

    There are so many inconsistencies here I don’t know where to begin, but here are a few thoughts.

    1) You quote very selectively from the Bible to back up your arguments. You say that Jesus came to set us free from rules, for example, whereas much of the Bible is full of rules. Does this mean that some of the Bible is to be trusted whilst other parts are not? How do we know which bits to believe and which to ignore?

    2) You say you follow the Lord out of love, not because you fear to be punished. That’s commendable yet there isnt much choice here: the Bible says that those who do not believe in him will perish.

    3) You say that God respects a person’s right to choose and yet the Bible says, “If thy brother, the son of thy mother [etc, etc] entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods […] thou shalt surely kill him…”

    This is one of the main issues I have with people who use the Bible to back up their arguments and beliefs: it can’t be trusted.

    GiH Admin

  • #183740

    stabitandsteer
    Participant
    Neophyte

    @KP wrote:

    @kolofarthos wrote:
    …eh..OK. So here’s a question.

    Which is the one true religion? Mine, yours or t’other persons?

    Okay, a second serious question (I answered sjs’s a few days ago)….
    True Christianity and religion are at odds, because true Christianity doesn’t have rules, it has freedom. Jesus said: “I have come so that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.” (John 10:10)…… But religions are man made, full of rules and regulations and used by mankind either to control people or to feed their ego! Jesus was not into ‘religions’, He said that He had come to set us free and He laid into the religious!
    So true Christianity is about freedom to follow and serve The Lord in faith because I want to, not because some priest or mullah or anybody else is going to punish me or even kill me because I offend his version of religion! I decide that I want to follow and serve The Lord out of love for Him and in faith. As I’ve said before, He doesn’t force himself upon anybody and respects your free will to choose. You alone choose freely what or who you want to follow and you alone must ultimately accept the consequences of your choices, as in anything in life!
    But any religion which says that they’re the only true religion or any religion which says that unless you do this and this and this, you should run a mile from!
    So it’s not about religion or which is the ‘true’ religion, but simply about a belief in Jesus Christ and in deciding in faith to follow Him without all the rules of any religion.
    We will not be judged according to which church or religion we joined, but if we simply in faith accept the atoning death and resurrection of The Lord Jesus. That’s all…….
    So simple, yet hundreds of millions perish without The Lord because they simply can’t believe that it could possibly be so simple.[/quot

    Well said ! I , like many adults who had Christianity [as a religion rather than a faith] thrust upon them in childhood , neither believe nor disbelieve simply because I can’t be bothered to do anything about it one way or the other but am glad of the opportunity to use irreverent humour as a defense mechanism [ for which I salute your thick skin and open mind :) ] when challenged to think about it . As we are never likely to agree on whether or not God exists or whose religion is the best , we all appreciate that beer does exist so which is best ? Alfa or Mythos ?

  • #183741

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    @stabitandsteer wrote:

    Well said ! I , like many adults who had Christianity [as a religion rather than a faith] thrust upon them in childhood , neither believe nor disbelieve simply because I can’t be bothered to do anything about it one way or the other but am glad of the opportunity to use irreverent humour as a defense mechanism [ for which I salute your thick skin and open mind :) ] when challenged to think about it . As we are never likely to agree on whether or not God exists or whose religion is the best , we all appreciate that beer does exist so which is best ? Alfa or Mythos ?

    Vergina. Stone the infidel!!

    GiH Admin

  • #183742

    stabitandsteer
    Participant
    Neophyte

    @sjs wrote:

    @stabitandsteer wrote:
    Well said ! I , like many adults who had Christianity [as a religion rather than a faith] thrust upon them in childhood , neither believe nor disbelieve simply because I can’t be bothered to do anything about it one way or the other but am glad of the opportunity to use irreverent humour as a defense mechanism [ for which I salute your thick skin and open mind :) ] when challenged to think about it . As we are never likely to agree on whether or not God exists or whose religion is the best , we all appreciate that beer does exist so which is best ? Alfa or Mythos ?

    Vergina. Stone the infidel!!

    Who is she ? some unfortunate drunken slapper from the Bible ?

  • #183743

    nimbus
    Participant
    Homeric

    [/quote]Vergina. Stone the infidel!![/quote]

    Who is she ? some unfortunate drunken slapper from the Bible ?[/quote]

    I think he must be referring to the beer….

    headhome_weiss_en.jpg[/attachment:2shk2s7i]

  • #183744

    stabitandsteer
    Participant
    Neophyte

    @nimbus wrote:

    Vergina. Stone the infidel!![/quote]

    Who is she ? some unfortunate drunken slapper from the Bible ?[/quote]

    I think he must be referring to the beer….

    headhome_weiss_en.jpg[/attachment:2l05x5nt][/quote]

    I have just tried Stella Artois Cidre and its really put me in the mood to battre my wife

  • #183745

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @sjs wrote:

    Since you won’t answer my questions, I’ll question your answers.

    There are so many inconsistencies here I don’t know where to begin, but here are a few thoughts.

    1) You quote very selectively from the Bible to back up your arguments. You say that Jesus came to set us free from rules, for example, whereas much of the Bible is full of rules. Does this mean that some of the Bible is to be trusted whilst other parts are not? How do we know which bits to believe and which to ignore?

    2) You say you follow the Lord out of love, not because you fear to be punished. That’s commendable yet there isnt much choice here: the Bible says that those who do not believe in him will perish.

    3) You say that God respects a person’s right to choose and yet the Bible says, “If thy brother, the son of thy mother [etc, etc] entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods […] thou shalt surely kill him…”

    This is one of the main issues I have with people who use the Bible to back up their arguments and beliefs: it can’t be trusted.

    No inconsistencies there sjs, just your misunderstanding of the Bible and an illustration of why it’s so difficult for me to apply the sort of reasoning you seem to be looking for when you refuse to study the Bible before you criticise it and just come up with the old worn out objections of those in that situation, whereas if you took the time to study, you would understand the reasoning behind what is written and then we really would have more time to sit down for that beer, whatever type you prefer. :roll:

    1) The Bible is not full of ‘rules’ laid out for us to follow like some sort of rule book. The Bible is 66 books written over a period of 1,500 years by approx 40 different authors and it all fits together so well, it would be an impossibility for so many people who had never met each other and mostly never even lived at the same time of history to plan it like that! That’s only one reason why we know that God Himself guided these people in what to write. The rules are in the Old Testement, before Christ, and if you read the Bible carefully, you would see that the explanation is given that the 696 ‘rules’ and particularly the ’10 Commandments’ of the Old Testement were laid out for a number of reasons….. standard moral and health rules to ensure the survival of a nomadic people as they lived amongst their captors for 70 years and wandered the desert for 40 years, but it’s made very clear that the laws were ‘the school master’ not only designed to help the people, but to point them towards an understanding that their lives were quite pointless and that they needed a Saviour, who it had been planned would come to save them. ….. It’s people and formal religion which made the rules more important than the Saviour and mercy, and that’s why the prophets and then Jesus rebuked them leaders of religion etc, because they were so focussed on the rules that they forgot to be mercyful.

    2) That’s very true, they will…. but that’s not God’s choosing. It’s peoples choice not to believe in Him and to follow the devil instead. But simply put, God sent Jesus as a man to pay our penalty, so that we don’t die, but it’s people who won’t accept that He paid it, but many people are still insisting on perishing!
    Let’s say you were driving badly and broke the law badly and you were fined a few thousand by the court, but couldn’t pay the fine because you don’t have the money, so you’ve got to go to prison for a few months instead. Then somebody comes along and says, “look, you don’t have the means to pay the penalty, so I’ve been to the court treasurer and paid your penalty, you’re free to go…. no strings attached, just go”. But you don’t want to accept that it’s been done, so you go off to prison, despite not having to. Just because you don’t want to believe that somebody you don’t know would do that for you.

    3) I think that you’re mistaking Christianity for Islam. In Islam, the rule is that whatever is the earliest from their prophets, then that will always overule the latest. However, in the Bible is opposite, Jesus came to save us from the law He said and to give us a ‘new and better way’ as it’s described. Again, there were solid reasons for the laws in the early days of the Old Testement as I said earlier, but once we accept the redeeming work of Jesus Christ, then we are freed from those. The opposite to Islam. The Bible says that now the law doesn’t have any authority over me. I come under grace, not law. But I choose to do what is right because I want to out of gratitude and love, not because of any laws. Just as once I got married, out of love (and gratitude that such a lovely lady would love me and want to marry me πŸ˜€ ) I decided that I wanted to be faithful and treat my wife with the love and respect she deserves. There’s no real law that will make me do that, but I choose to. That’s what our relationship with God is like now.

    And before any wise guy jumps in and says it…. no of course neither my life in marriage, or my life in Christ, is perfect all the time…. but because we love each other, we are ready to forgive and forget and move on each time we stumble! :mrgreen:

  • #183746

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    OK,…I think I see where you are coming from KP … 😈 ……but also don’t think you’ve answered sjs very well! ic_sad

    Despite what you maintain, KP, the Bible is still full of ‘rules’ – even if not set out as lists etc. e.g. “Honour thy father and mother” etc., – laudable, yes perhaps, but still an explicit instruction. So first question: how can you justifiably maintain that it does not have rules? reb_popo

    Also you effectively are saying (I think) ignore the Old Testament as the coming of Christ changed all that? Well just considering the New Testament, compiled from diverse sources over long periods – but eventually put into language by men and with several differing versions and translations. OK all the versions are purported to be representing Christianity and available most commonly through religious groups that have had a hand in their production and have differences do they not ?
    So the second question is: which is the correct version and if you have it how can you be sure that it is and that ‘your’ interpretation is correct? πŸ˜•

  • #183747

    nimbus
    Participant
    Homeric

    @kolofarthos wrote:

    OK,…I think I see where you are coming from KP … 😈

    Really,then consider this…

    “The beauty of religious mania is that it has the power to explain everything. Once God (or Satan) is accepted as the first cause of everything which happens in the mortal world, nothing is left to chance… logic can be happily tossed out the window.” Stephen King.

    Roget’s II: Thesaurus defines grandiosity as “boastful self-importance or display” and offers the words “ostentation,” “pomposity” and “pretension” to further illustrate this definition. In short, it is an exaggerated sense of one’s importance, power, knowledge or identity. It often has religious overtones. The term “grandiosity” is used to describe the larger-than-life feelings of superiority often experienced by those in a manic episode.

    Think about it, by the way just love the new avatar KP great likeness πŸ˜†

  • #183748

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @kolofarthos wrote:

    OK,…I think I see where you are coming from KP … 😈 ……but also don’t think you’ve answered sjs very well! ic_sad

    Despite what you maintain, KP, the Bible is still full of ‘rules’ – even if not set out as lists etc. e.g. “Honour thy father and mother” etc., – laudable, yes perhaps, but still an explicit instruction. So first question: how can you justifiably maintain that it does not have rules? reb_popo

    Also you effectively are saying (I think) ignore the Old Testament as the coming of Christ changed all that? Well just considering the New Testament, compiled from diverse sources over long periods – but eventually put into language by men and with several differing versions and translations. OK all the versions are purported to be representing Christianity and available most commonly through religious groups that have had a hand in their production and have differences do they not ?
    So the second question is: which is the correct version and if you have it how can you be sure that it is and that ‘your’ interpretation is correct? πŸ˜•

    That’s the problem with all this kolo, which is why I tried to avoid it all, because those without the faith in God will see things in one way and those with, in another and it’s extrememly difficult in a medium like this to begin to reconcile the 2….. face to face is always so much easier and a good excuse for an ouzo! :mrgreen:
    On your questions though, I am most definatly NOT suggesting that one ignores the Old Testament. Without the Old alongside the New, none of it would make sense. ‘In the Old is the New concealed, in the New is the Old revealed’.
    However, my point about the ‘rules’ in the Bible as you refer to them, is that although they are there and many of them are most admirable, they are not what is needed for salvation. I might not know anything about any of the ‘rules’ in the Bible, but by simple faith in the work of Christ, I can be saved….. However, on the other hand, I might know all the ‘rules’ and work hard at keeping every single one, but never be saved, because I’ve been focussing on the rules, instead of simply trusting in Christ and in what He has done! ……… This was a great bone of contention between Christ and the religious leaders of His time.
    So much so, that the New Testement goes to great lengths to make the people of the time understand this, and Ephesians 2:8-9 says it best: “For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

    Finally, on you comment about ‘versions’ of the Bible and ‘translations’. In essence, all of the standard Bibles
    say the same and give the same message, and if I’m unsure, I can go back to the the original manuscripts (almost totally written in Greek) for the New Testament to compare and to the ancient ‘Septuagint’ for the Old. However, those who don’t believe in the fundamental foundations of the written Word of God, will of course have a problem as they don’t even have a starting point which they can trust. So we’re back to faith again. ……. no getting away from it.

  • #183749

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    @KP wrote:

    No inconsistencies there sjs, just your misunderstanding of the Bible and an illustration of why it’s so difficult for me to apply the sort of reasoning you seem to be looking for when you refuse to study the Bible before you criticise it and just come up with the old worn out objections of those in that situation, whereas if you took the time to study, you would understand the reasoning behind what is written and then we really would have more time to sit down for that beer, whatever type you prefer. :roll:

    And here we have a problem. Your arguments all seem to be based around the content of a book which, you freely admit, is a bit of a mish-mash. No matter how much you proclaim “belief” that it was written (by proxy) by God, it has as much validity as any other book and any other opinion. The Koran, for example, or Harry Potter.

    Just because you (or anyone else for that matter) believe it was written by God does not make it true!

    @KP wrote:

    The Bible is 66 books written over a period of 1,500 years by approx 40 different authors and it all fits together so well, it would be an impossibility for so many people who had never met each other and mostly never even lived at the same time of history to plan it like that! That’s only one reason why we know that God Himself guided these people in what to write.

    Whether it fits together so well is purely opinion. There are many, many inconsistencies in the Bible which point to it NOT fitting together so well. There are books in the Bible which stand out as very different and seem to belong to some other canon (thinking Song of Soloman here closer to an Arabic love poem than anything around it in the Bible) and there are books which are notable by their absence (the so-called Lost Gospels).

    And all this means that the makeup of the Bible is as valid an argument against God writing it as yours is for him writing it.

    So you see, KP, that trying to cite a questionable source is completely invalid. Or rather, it is valid as any other source, even contradictory ones.

    Imagine this, in a few thousand years time someone finds a barely legible copy of the NoTW and decides it’s the word of God. This is 100% as valid as you claiming the Bible to be the word of God – and for me that means both are rubbish.

    GiH Admin

  • #183750

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @nimbus wrote:

    @kolofarthos wrote:
    OK,…I think I see where you are coming from KP … 😈

    Really,then consider this…

    “The beauty of religious mania is that it has the power to explain everything. Once God (or Satan) is accepted as the first cause of everything which happens in the mortal world, nothing is left to chance… logic can be happily tossed out the window.” Stephen King.

    Roget’s II: Thesaurus defines grandiosity as “boastful self-importance or display” and offers the words “ostentation,” “pomposity” and “pretension” to further illustrate this definition. In short, it is an exaggerated sense of one’s importance, power, knowledge or identity. It often has religious overtones. The term “grandiosity” is used to describe the larger-than-life feelings of superiority often experienced by those in a manic episode.

    Think about it, by the way just love the new avatar KP great likeness πŸ˜†

    Right…. so I can happily quote and take to heart what Stephen King says? πŸ˜• What a bizarre thought!

    As for your quote from Roget’s, choosing the word ‘grandiosity’ as the starting point and foundation of your complete argument, you are more illustrating your personal feelings about Christianity rather than making a logical argument. However nimbus, as you may gather, it really doesn’t bother me that anybody thinks badly of me, as I’m secure in what I believe. It’s not something which just happened in a moment of time, but has been a journey of discovery form many years and if you believe I’m having a ‘manic episode’ as you suggest, then I don’t have a problem with that either! πŸ˜€ Perhaps I’m a manic for God? :roll:
    All I know is that I love my life and enjoy every day as I’m living life to the full as I try to be all that God created me to be and experiencing all He would want me to enjoy! After all, He says: “I have come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly/to the full”.

  • #183685

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @sjs wrote:

    @KP wrote:
    No inconsistencies there sjs, just your misunderstanding of the Bible and an illustration of why it’s so difficult for me to apply the sort of reasoning you seem to be looking for when you refuse to study the Bible before you criticise it and just come up with the old worn out objections of those in that situation, whereas if you took the time to study, you would understand the reasoning behind what is written and then we really would have more time to sit down for that beer, whatever type you prefer. :roll:

    And here we have a problem. Your arguments all seem to be based around the content of a book which, you freely admit, is a bit of a mish-mash. No matter how much you proclaim “belief” that it was written (by proxy) by God, it has as much validity as any other book and any other opinion. The Koran, for example, or Harry Potter.

    Just because you (or anyone else for that matter) believe it was written by God does not make it true!

    @KP wrote:

    The Bible is 66 books written over a period of 1,500 years by approx 40 different authors and it all fits together so well, it would be an impossibility for so many people who had never met each other and mostly never even lived at the same time of history to plan it like that! That’s only one reason why we know that God Himself guided these people in what to write.

    Whether it fits together so well is purely opinion. There are many, many inconsistencies in the Bible which point to it NOT fitting together so well. There are books in the Bible which stand out as very different and seem to belong to some other canon (thinking Song of Soloman here closer to an Arabic love poem than anything around it in the Bible) and there are books which are notable by their absence (the so-called Lost Gospels).

    And all this means that the makeup of the Bible is as valid an argument against God writing it as yours is for him writing it.

    So you see, KP, that trying to cite a questionable source is completely invalid. Or rather, it is valid as any other source, even contradictory ones.

    Imagine this, in a few thousand years time someone finds a barely legible copy of the NoTW and decides it’s the word of God. This is 100% as valid as you claiming the Bible to be the word of God – and for me that means both are rubbish.

    Neither Harry Potter, nor the NoTW (deceased) were written in such a spectacular manner and stand surviving as the most read ‘book’ for 2,000 years!
    As for the ‘mish-mash’ of the 66 books of the Bible. Where else is it possible that so many different books with so many different authors written over so many generations could have one single focus which all comes together? You keep saying that you’ve never read it and have no interest in reading it, so how can you keep saying these things about the thread of the Bible with any authority whatsoever? What else could anybody ever take that sort of approach over and think it’s a sane argument? But people do that over the Bible all the time and it’s accepted as a valid argument! Doesn’t that seem very strange to you? ………… However, strangely enough it doesn’t seem strange to me at all, because I have read the Bible through many times and know that it speaks of this often, particularly well described in 2Corinthians 4:3-4 where it states: “But if our gospel (the message of Christ) is hidden, it is hidden to those being lost, in whom the god of this world (the devil) has blinded the minds of the unbelieving ones, so that the light of the glorious gospel of Christ (who is the image of God) should not dawn on them.” :roll:
    And only you can allow that to keep happening as long as you cling to your intransigence to reading and studying the Bible so as to allow the light and truth to shine into your mind! But, as I keep saying, it’s your own choice and I respect your personal choice.

  • #183686

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    @KP wrote:

    Neither Harry Potter, nor the NoTW (deceased) were written in such a spectacular manner and stand surviving as the most read ‘book’ for 2,000 years!

    Which does still not mean it was written by God! These arguments are totally invalid.

    @KP wrote:

    As for the ‘mish-mash’ of the 66 books of the Bible. Where else is it possible that so many different books with so many different authors written over so many generations could have one single focus which all comes together?

    Which does still not mean it was written by God!

    @KP wrote:

    You keep saying that you’ve never read it and have no interest in reading it, so how can you keep saying these things about the thread of the Bible with any authority whatsoever? What else could anybody ever take that sort of approach over and think it’s a sane argument?

    Sorry to repeat myself, but this still does not provide any evidence that the Bible was written by God. Your argument here says that the person who knows more about a subject is right and the person who knows less about it not right. Plainly wrong.

    @KP wrote:

    But people do that over the Bible all the time and it’s accepted as a valid argument! Doesn’t that seem very strange to you? ………… However, strangely enough it doesn’t seem strange to me at all, because I have read the Bible through many times and know that it speaks of this often, particularly well described in 2Corinthians 4:3-4 where it states: “But if our gospel (the message of Christ) is hidden, it is hidden to those being lost, in whom the god of this world (the devil) has blinded the minds of the unbelieving ones, so that the light of the glorious gospel of Christ (who is the image of God) should not dawn on them.” :roll:

    Sorry, but you’ll need to provide some sort of evidence outside the Bible to prove God existed. What you are doing is a bit like saying an autobiography HAS to be true because it was written by the person it’s about! :(

    @KP wrote:

    ..it’s your own choice and I respect your personal choice.

    [/quote]

    Your God doesn’t though. I’m going to perish because I’m showing freewill according to the Bible! :roll:

    GiH Admin

  • #183687

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @sjs wrote:

    @KP wrote:
    Neither Harry Potter, nor the NoTW (deceased) were written in such a spectacular manner and stand surviving as the most read ‘book’ for 2,000 years!

    Which does still not mean it was written by God! These arguments are totally invalid.
    and does not mean that it was NOT written by God! Why should it be any more invalid than you saying that it wasn’t written by God?

    @KP wrote:

    As for the ‘mish-mash’ of the 66 books of the Bible. Where else is it possible that so many different books with so many different authors written over so many generations could have one single focus which all comes together?

    Which does still not mean it was written by God!
    and again it still does not mean that it was not! Do you see a pattern emerging here? A pattern whereby I keep saying that only you can prove it for yourself…. I can’t prove it for you personally, anymore than I can believe for you! πŸ˜•

    @KP wrote:

    You keep saying that you’ve never read it and have no interest in reading it, so how can you keep saying these things about the thread of the Bible with any authority whatsoever? What else could anybody ever take that sort of approach over and think it’s a sane argument?

    Sorry to repeat myself, but this still does not provide any evidence that the Bible was written by God. Your argument here says that the person who knows more about a subject is right and the person who knows less about it not right. Plainly wrong.
    No, I’m not saying that the the person who knows more about the subject is right and that the person who knows less is wrong….. what I’m saying is again what I keep on saying like a broken record, that the person who has somehow miraculously had some sort of emotional revelation that God does not exist and who still refuses to either read what he is discussing and claiming to know about or to study it, cannot be debated with on anything more than an emotional level! …… You keep asking me to ‘prove’ God, but you expect me to do it at purely some sort of emotional level which doesn’t require you to know anything! And I really don’t know how you can possibly expect me to do that as we don’t have basic foundation to build on! Surely you can see that?

    @KP wrote:

    But people do that over the Bible all the time and it’s accepted as a valid argument! Doesn’t that seem very strange to you? ………… However, strangely enough it doesn’t seem strange to me at all, because I have read the Bible through many times and know that it speaks of this often, particularly well described in 2Corinthians 4:3-4 where it states: “But if our gospel (the message of Christ) is hidden, it is hidden to those being lost, in whom the god of this world (the devil) has blinded the minds of the unbelieving ones, so that the light of the glorious gospel of Christ (who is the image of God) should not dawn on them.” :roll:

    Sorry, but you’ll need to provide some sort of evidence outside the Bible to prove God existed. What you are doing is a bit like saying an autobiography HAS to be true because it was written by the person it’s about! :(
    No….. I am simply telling you why I believe and understand that, and that until you are ready to be open to looking for yourself, it’s considerably more difficult to progress. ……… Oh look, we’re back to starting with faith! πŸ˜€

    @KP wrote:

    ..it’s your own choice and I respect your personal choice.

    Your God doesn’t though. I’m going to perish because I’m showing freewill according to the Bible! :roll:
    not my decision and not for me to say….. that’s between you and God. Just because you don’t believe that He exists, doesn’t mean that He doesn’t! However, you’re totally wrong if you think that God doesn’t respect your right to your freewill! He’s doing everything he can to see you saved, because the last thing He wants is to see anybody perish, but He won’t force anybody because He respects your right to choice too much…. anyway, if you’re so convinced that He doesn’t exist, what do you care? :mrgreen:
    [/quote]

  • #183688

    Bandit
    Participant
    Neophyte

    Kin ell, KP.

    Your not gonna turn up at my door on Sunday morn, and try and sell me “War Cry” are ya?? :roll: :roll:
    And remember I have seen “The Life Of Brian” quite a few times,

    Regards,
    Bandit. 😈

  • #183689

    the reiver
    Participant
    Oracle

    Well Bandit, I might just agree with you here. ic_shock

    When the red font comes out it will be CAPITALS next. This is a very personal thing, and there is a very old Scottish saying (in most Club rules) that religion and politics should not be discussed in public.

    8)

  • #183690

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    LOL… more likely to turn up at your door touting for an ouzo bandit! :mrgreen:

    And reiver…. don’t forget I married a Scot and have become an honoury Scot. Even my daughter has married a Highlander, lives in Edinburgh and both my grandsons are Scots! So I know that the Scots don’t have any problem discussing anything in public! Especially if it’s in the Public bar over a shared drink! :mrgreen:

    Anyway, surely you should be telling this to sjs as he’s the one keeping the thread going! I keep trying to escape but he keeps dragging me back in! :roll:

  • #183715

    Pappa Ouzo
    Participant
    Neophyte

    Now Now boys this is developing into somewhat of an Odyssey ic_ugeek ic_ugeek

  • #183716

    stabitandsteer
    Participant
    Neophyte

    @KP wrote:

    LOL… more likely to turn up at your door touting for an ouzo bandit! :mrgreen:

    And reiver…. don’t forget I married a Scot and have become an honoury Scot. Even my daughter has married a Highlander, lives in Edinburgh and both my grandsons are Scots! So I know that the Scots don’t have any problem discussing anything in public! Especially if it’s in the Public bar over a shared drink! :mrgreen:

    Anyway, surely you should be telling this to sjs as he’s the one keeping the thread going! I keep trying to escape but he keeps dragging me back in! :roll:

    Apparently Scots don’t have any problem doing ANYTHING in public . I heard that the game of hopscotch was invented in Glasgow by kids stepping over their parents drunk in the street ! :))

  • #183717

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    I *love* KPs argument: I believe it therefore it’s true. I shall use that whenever I’m stuck for words next time.

    Sorry, KP, doesn’t wash with the real world.

    GiH Admin

  • #183718

    the reiver
    Participant
    Oracle

    Now we have sjs and KP
    Eye to eye they never will see
    So let’s be like adults
    And cut out the insults
    And agree—- to disagree.

    8)

    Oh s**t, wrong forum


    not! πŸ˜›

  • #183719

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @sjs wrote:

    I *love* KPs argument: I believe it therefore it’s true. I shall use that whenever I’m stuck for words next time.

    Sorry, KP, doesn’t wash with the real world.

    Strangely enough I thought the same thing about your argument sjs!
    Isn’t it strange that that’s how we see each others argument? So who’s right? Though I would say that it’s a matter of each being right in our own eyes! (another quote from the Bible!) :mrgreen:

  • #183720

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    God came down
    With half a crown
    And asked me to buy
    A blueberry pie
    But since I didn’t believe in him I snatched the money and ran and then found it there was nothing in my hand

    GiH Admin

  • #183721

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    @KP wrote:

    @sjs wrote:
    I *love* KPs argument: I believe it therefore it’s true. I shall use that whenever I’m stuck for words next time.

    Sorry, KP, doesn’t wash with the real world.

    Strangely enough I thought the same thing about your argument sjs!
    Isn’t it strange that that’s how we see each others argument? So who’s right? Though I would say that it’s a matter of each being right in our own eyes! (another quote from the Bible!) :mrgreen:

    Methinks you’re pretending not to understand. I believe things because they are proved to me, not because I *just believe* in the them. You believe without proof.

    GiH Admin

  • #183722

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    hmmm? In the same way in which you could ‘prove’ that God doesn’t exist?

    Perhaps we’re at that stage where we need to take the reiver’s excellent advice?

    Now we have sjs and KP
    Eye to eye they never will see
    So let’s be like adults
    And cut out the insults
    And agree—- to disagree.

    :mrgreen:

  • #183723

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    @KP wrote:

    hmmm? In the same way in which you could ‘prove’ that God doesn’t exist?

    Tell me your definition of God and I’ll prove he doesn’t exist.

    GiH Admin

  • #183724

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    for somebody who’s convinced that God doesn’t exist, you seem to be really anxious to discuss Him! :roll:
    But if it’s just a matter of needing to have the last word, then you have it! I’m totally a peace in what I believe, so I’m happy for you to have had the last word! :mrgreen:

  • #183725

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    @KP wrote:

    for somebody who’s convinced that God doesn’t exist, you seem to be really anxious to discuss Him! :roll:
    But if it’s just a matter of needing to have the last word, then you have it! I’m totally a peace in what I believe, so I’m happy for you to have had the last word! :mrgreen:

    So you won’t tell me your definition then. Hmmm… wonder why…

    GiH Admin

  • #183726

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    It’s okay, I won’t rise to the bait….. you’ve got the last word! :mrgreen:

  • #183751

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Hey lads, I have it….for a short while………unless there’s a miracle πŸ˜†

  • #183753

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    @KP wrote:

    It’s okay, I won’t rise to the bait….. you’ve got the last word! :mrgreen:

    What a shame – I was looking forward to a reasoned argument here. Anyone?

    GiH Admin

  • #183754

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @sjs wrote:

    @KP wrote:
    It’s okay, I won’t rise to the bait….. you’ve got the last word! :mrgreen:

    What a shame – I was looking forward to a reasoned argument here. Anyone?

    There’s our difficulty then……. a ‘reasoned argument’ requires both sides to be reasoned! :roll:

  • #183755

    sjs – GiH Admin
    Keymaster
    Aristotelic

    @KP wrote:

    @sjs wrote:
    @KP wrote:
    It’s okay, I won’t rise to the bait….. you’ve got the last word! :mrgreen:

    What a shame – I was looking forward to a reasoned argument here. Anyone?

    There’s our difficulty then……. a ‘reasoned argument’ requires both sides to be reasoned! :roll:

    You’re back! I thought you’d given up.

    Go on then, let’s hear your reasoned definition of God and I’ll give it a go.

    GiH Admin

  • #183752

    stabitandsteer
    Participant
    Neophyte

    To most Christians the Bible is like a software agreement . Nobody reads all of it and takes it in they just get to the end and click ” I agree ” :))

  • #183756

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    I liked that last one πŸ˜€

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