Its all a bit heavy !!

Forums Living in Greece General Discussion Its all a bit heavy !!

This topic contains 184 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by  kolofarthos 1 year, 11 months ago.

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  • #158704

    The Grocer
    Participant
    Oracle
  • #195075

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Obviously a veiled message to the powers. It gives the feeling that the end is near.

  • #195076

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Wondering how true this is http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-02/greece-breaks-americas-heart-will-sign-mou-russia-gas-pipeline warning…avoid the vulgar comments section.

  • #195077

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic
  • #195078

    Sancho the Fat
    Participant
    Neophyte

    @kiwi wrote:

    The link won’t work so try pasting it into google to open.
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-05/greek-banks-verge-total-collapse-bank-run-surges-massively-depositors-yank-€700-mill

    Or google

    “Greek Banks On Verge Of Total Collapse: Bank Run Surges “Massively” As Depositors Yank €700 Million Today Alone”

    and click on the first result you get.

  • #195079

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Actually I thought I deleted the post because I couldn’t get it to work. Argh.

  • #195080

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    Well I think the foreigners don’t care as the flats/houses that I am interested in keep disappearing before I can get my cash. Sigh.

  • #195081

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Our naive Greek government still don’t seem to have grasped that unless they bite the bullet and address the causes, rather than treating the symptoms over and over, all they’re doing is putting off the inevitable total collapse of the economy! …….. by trying to find more money from the Russians and others who want to hold a sceptre over Greece, all they’re doing is buying a bit more time.
    They desperatly need to implement the changes which go against the grain for them and will bring them a degree of unpopularity in the short term as well…. but they won’t, so all we’ll end up with is many more years of desperatly scrabbling around every so often trying to find more money and when they can’t, they’ll be in so deep and deeply indebted to countries such as Russia, which will want their pound of flesh and will take it in any way they can!
    The future doesn’t bear thinking about! Greece is being sold out…… :(

  • #195082

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Just read this excellent article in Kathimerini

    http://ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite3_1_02/06/2015_550604

  • #195083

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Written by Alexis Papahelas the managing editor of Kathimerini the most conservative right wing newspaper in Greece. I wouldn’t expect him to write a positive commentary about Tsipras when he is a clear supporter of Samaras. I love the way they are blaming a Government a few months old for the current crisis as if this crisis is something new and was not around for the last five years. The large pink elephant in the room is the fact that you can’t be lent money to repay your debt, to pretend you are solvent.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/business-32989534

  • #195084

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Hahaha, one right wing, one left wing, one biased, one this, one that…. how many more excuses can be added to “……a government a few months old”, when it’s just coming up to 5 months in power?
    It is generally considered that a government needs a maximum of 100 days in power be able to instigate it’s policies and illustrate what direction they’re going in for the rest of their time in power! But this lot are way beyond 100 days and not only have they yet to implement or illustrate where they’re going in the future, but they just don’t even seem to know themselves! Again, as I’ve said a couple of times before kiwi, I don’t have any real problem with which direction they decide to go in…. my problem is the uncertainty as they just won’t make a solid decision either way! Some 137 days of not knowing is a lifetime in global economics and politics and debt at 180% of GDP increases by the day…. well, by the minute actually! I wish that I could have the equivalent of a few minutes of the increase in interest only in Greek debt!
    Just the increase in interest in ONE MINUTE is the equivalent of some 45,000 Euro right now, but by the time you read this, will have increased as owing interest carries interest! 😯

    If you want to while away a few minutes of your life and potentially end up feeling like you want to end your life at the futility of such figures, then just click on this link and watch the figures! I guarantee that you can’t say the figures fast enough to keep up with them! 😕
    http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/greece

  • #195085

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Nobel Laureate Economist Joseph Stiglitz says austerity was and is a mistake. Worth watching
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2015-05-19/stiglitz-grexit-would-be-very-serious-for-europe

  • #195086

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Now here’s a good example of what I’ve been talking about…..

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/article-3120648/IMF-quits-Greece-debt-talks-shock-announcement-citing-major-differences.html

    It’s as if I was there as they’re using my oft used comment, “The euro weakened and shares slid today after last night’s shock IMF announcement that it was leaving the talks. It came after the European Union insisted Greek prime minister Alexis Tsipras stop ‘gambling’ and make a decision to avoid a default.”

    Again, my point…. I don’t care what decision the government makes, just stop playing games and make a decision!! Any decision!!! Then the world, the EU, the IMF, Greece, Me, you and even Kiwi will know what to expect and how to plan for the future and prepare! :mrgreen:

  • #195087

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @KP wrote:

    Now here’s a good example of what I’ve been talking about…..

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/article-3120648/IMF-quits-Greece-debt-talks-shock-announcement-citing-major-differences.html

    It’s as if I was there as they’re using my oft used comment, “The euro weakened and shares slid today after last night’s shock IMF announcement that it was leaving the talks. It came after the European Union insisted Greek prime minister Alexis Tsipras stop ‘gambling’ and make a decision to avoid a default.”

    Again, my point…. I don’t care what decision the government makes, just stop playing games and make a decision!! Any decision!!! Then the world, the EU, the IMF, Greece, Me, you and even Kiwi will know what to expect and how to plan for the future and prepare! :mrgreen:

    I thank the ever kind and lovely Brenda for her thanks for my comment, though I must admit to being somewhat disappointed that it didn’t have the desired effect in stirring things up a bit, or at least in getting kiwi to leap into the fray once again in her admirable way to defend the indefensible? :mrgreen:

  • #195088

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    One can’t keep preaching to the converted kp :unibrow: I think the comments that he is not making a decision are quite wrong. Tsipras has made a decision. He has decided to stick to what he said before the elections to not tax the paupers and lower pensions, and he keeps repeating this adnauseum but the Eurogroup doesn’t like that answer and so they continue to withhold money to force Greece to do it exactly the way it was before…that clever austerity plan that has sent 10,000 people many young, to commit suicide. That’s the population of a small town.

  • #195089

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @kiwi wrote:

    One can’t keep preaching to the converted kp :unibrow: I think the comments that he is not making a decision are quite wrong. Tsipras has made a decision. He has decided to stick to what he said before the elections to not tax the paupers and lower pensions, and he keeps repeating this adnauseum but the Eurogroup doesn’t like that answer and so they continue to withhold money to force Greece to do it exactly the way it was before…that clever austerity plan that has sent 10,000 people many young, to commit suicide. That’s the population of a small town.

    That’s more like it kiwi! :))
    It’s nice to have your point of view, even if it is somewhat predictable! :mrgreen:
    But you’re still missing the point….. This has little to do with taxing the paupers and lower pensions…. this has to do with making a decision which will take the country forwards…. one can’t just say, “we’re not going to tax such and such, but we don’t know where the money is going to come from to pay our bills and what we owe, so we’re just going to sit here not doing anything in particular until somebody gives us more money”… That’s not a decision… he needs to say for example, “because what the EU is demanding is too onerous and goes against my promises to the people of Greece we are leaving the Euro and will align ourselves with Russia and China who have kindly promised from the goodness of their hearts to care for us fellow socialists because they love their fellow humans”….. or some such thing…. THAT’S a decision… then at least everybody can then breath a sigh of relief and say, “great… therefore we are ………blah, blah, blah”….

  • #195090

    sundodger
    Participant
    Homeric

    …Well, quite frankly I think the answer is to simply sit down with a good bacon sandwich (with lots of brown sauce) & just chat away until it’s sorted……………Simple ! :))

  • #195093

    Sancho the Fat
    Participant
    Neophyte

    @KP wrote:

    @kiwi wrote:
    One can’t keep preaching to the converted kp :unibrow: I think the comments that he is not making a decision are quite wrong. Tsipras has made a decision. He has decided to stick to what he said before the elections to not tax the paupers and lower pensions, and he keeps repeating this adnauseum but the Eurogroup doesn’t like that answer and so they continue to withhold money to force Greece to do it exactly the way it was before…that clever austerity plan that has sent 10,000 people many young, to commit suicide. That’s the population of a small town.

    That’s more like it kiwi! :))
    It’s nice to have your point of view, even if it is somewhat predictable! :mrgreen:
    But you’re still missing the point….. This has little to do with taxing the paupers and lower pensions…. this has to do with making a decision which will take the country forwards…. one can’t just say, “we’re not going to tax such and such, but we don’t know where the money is going to come from to pay our bills and what we owe, so we’re just going to sit here not doing anything in particular until somebody gives us more money”… That’s not a decision… he needs to say for example, “because what the EU is demanding is too onerous and goes against my promises to the people of Greece we are leaving the Euro and will align ourselves with Russia and China who have kindly promised from the goodness of their hearts to care for us fellow socialists because they love their fellow humans”….. or some such thing…. THAT’S a decision… then at least everybody can then breath a sigh of relief and say, “great… therefore we are ………blah, blah, blah”….

    Of course it’s a decision. For one thing deciding not to do x or y or anything is as much a decision as deciding to do something, or x or y. For another doing nothing and just holding to a position, going nowhere, is sometimes the best idea. Ask the Duke of Wellington, who won every one of his victories (except I think one in India, which I’ve forgotten the name of – it involved a night attack) in exactly that way. That was what the famous reverse-slope was all about. Ask any chess-player about the zugzwang. Get into a position that’s tenable for both you and the other fellow so long as you don’t move, but where he has to move. Let him move, then hammer him.

    And it’s got everything to do with paupers and pensions.

  • #195091

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Thank you sancho, I agree.

    Yay! Sundodge is back talking bacon. About time, where have you been hiding? You have been missed.

  • #195092

    sundodger
    Participant
    Homeric

    ….A few problems & a sense of humour failure ! Beginning to see the light though :)

  • #195094

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Life’s too short to be without all of us Sundodge :)) we look forward to some of your yummy recipes and ideas.

  • #195095

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Yep welcome back ,Sunnyboy, hope things are improving.

    Well KP, Kiwi has you there! A decision is a decision even if it is to stick your head in the sand and await impending Armageddon!
    All you needed to add was to say he needed to make a positive decision to act instead of intransigence and trying to walk the tightrope between ending austerity, staying in the Euro and defaulting thus creating lots more short to medium term problems for Greece and the residents.

    Crikey that’s a tightrope for each leg at least!!

  • #195096

    Shazzie
    Participant
    Oracle

    I’ve said it before but – MY BRAIN HURTS !!!!

  • #195097

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Sore head? Sunnyboy says eat bacon butties reb_bravo
    He has lots of insight so I’m off to invest in pork bellies…. 😆

    Now where’s those fifty cents I brought back from my budget holiday……on I forgot to say we had a week in windy Cyprus. Didn’t find KP’s roots but something about a goddess out of the sea…..could have been Ursula Andress? 😕 😛

  • #195098

    Sancho the Fat
    Participant
    Neophyte

    in the FT this morning

    June 14, 2015 4:09 pm

    Greece has nothing to lose by saying no to creditors

    Wolfgang Münchau

    If it were to default on its official-sector debt, France and Germany stand to forfeit €160bn

    So here we are. Alexis Tsipras has been told to take it or leave it. What should he do?

    The Greek prime minister does not face elections until January 2019. Any course of action he decides on now would have to bear fruit in three years or less.

    First, contrast the two extreme scenarios: accept the creditors’ final offer or leave the eurozone. By accepting the offer, he would have to agree to a fiscal adjustment of 1.7 per cent of gross domestic product within six months.

    My colleague Martin Sandbu calculated how an adjustment of such scale would affect the Greek growth rate. I have now extended that calculation to incorporate the entire four-year fiscal adjustment programme, as demanded by the creditors. Based on the same assumptions he makes about how fiscal policy and GDP interact, a two-way process, I come to a figure of a cumulative hit on the level of GDP of 12.6 per cent over four years. The Greek debt-to-GDP ratio would start approaching 200 per cent. My conclusion is that the acceptance of the troika’s programme would constitute a dual suicide — for the Greek economy, and for the political career of the Greek prime minister.

    Would the opposite extreme, Grexit, achieve a better outcome? You bet it would, for three reasons. The most important effect is for Greece to be able to get rid of lunatic fiscal adjustments. Greece would still need to run a small primary surplus, which may require a one-off adjustment, but this is it.

    Greece would default on all official creditors — the International Monetary Fund, the European Central Bank and the European Stability Mechanism, and on the bilateral loans from its European creditors. But it would service all private loans with the strategic objective to regain market access a few years later.

    The second reason is a reduction of risk. After Grexit, nobody would need to fear a currency redenomination risk. And the chance of an outright default would be much reduced, as Greece would already have defaulted on its official creditors and would be very keen to regain trust among private investors.

    The third reason is the impact on the economy’s external position. Unlike the small economies of northern Europe, Greece is a relatively closed economy. About three quarters of its GDP is domestic. Of the quarter that is not, most comes from tourism, which would benefit from devaluation. The total effect of devaluation would not be nearly as strong as it would be for an open economy such as Ireland, but it would be beneficial nonetheless. Of the three effects, the first is the most important in the short term, while the second and third will dominate in the long run

    Grexit, of course, has pitfalls, mostly in the very short term. A sudden introduction of a new currency would be chaotic. The government might have to impose capital controls and close the borders. Those year-one losses would be substantial, but after the chaos subsides the economy would quickly recover.

    Comparing those two scenarios reminds me of Sir Winston Churchill’s remark that drunkenness, unlike ugliness, is a quality that wears off. The first scenario is simply ugly, and will always remain so. The second gives you a hangover followed by certain sobriety.

    So if this were the choice, the Greeks would have a rational reason to prefer Grexit. This will, however, not be the choice to be taken this week. The choice is between accepting or rejecting the creditors’ offer. Grexit is a potential, but not certain, consequence of the latter.

    If Mr Tsipras were to reject the offer and miss the latest deadline — the June 18 meeting of eurozone finance ministers — he would end up defaulting on debt repayments due in July and August. At that point Greece would still be in the eurozone and would only be forced to leave if the ECB were to reduce the flow of liquidity to Greek banks below a tolerable limit. That may happen, but it is not a foregone conclusion.

    The eurozone creditors may well decide that it is in their own interest to talk about debt relief for Greece at that point. Just consider their position. If Greece were to default on all of its official-sector debt, France and Germany alone would stand to lose some €160bn. Angela Merkel and François Hollande would go down as the biggest financial losers in history. The creditors are rejecting any talks about debt relief now, but that may be different once Greece starts to default. If they negotiate, everybody would benefit. Greece would stay in the eurozone, since the fiscal adjustment to service a lower burden of debt would be more tolerable. The creditors would be able to recoup some of their otherwise certain losses.

    The bottom line is that Greece cannot really lose by rejecting this week’s offer.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5e38f1be-1116-11e5-9bf8-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3d78lZMoC

  • #195099

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    There KP, the logic behind the decision! All Alexis has to do is read it and act ic_wink

    I cannot believe it is so simple……..

  • #195100

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @sundodger wrote:

    …Well, quite frankly I think the answer is to simply sit down with a good bacon sandwich (with lots of brown sauce) & just chat away until it’s sorted……………Simple ! :))

    Make it a bacon sarnie with English mustard instead and you’ve got a deal……… See how simple it is to come to decisions? Greek problem solved! :))

  • #195101

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    It’s becoming painfully clear that the Europeans are trying to make an example of Tsipras because he is a socialist and they fear it will become contagious. Oh dear…and they would all lose their cushy well paid jobs? Darn those Socialists, don’t they know better than to argue with the Capitalists…they have a dream. :finger:

  • #195102

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Sancho well done, but I’ve given up trying to shrink the urls, it just takes to long and I don’t have the patience http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-16/global-risk-china-europe-us-greek-impasse-hits-markets

  • #195103

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Kiwi, are you paranoid about fear of socialism being the reason there is no agreement? You should remember Francois Hollonde wishes Alexis T would stop messing about and FH is a socialist too……

    Did watch Sancho’s video link explaining how it is all down to US big business ganging up on the little nations …..and declaring it wasn’t suggesting a conspiracy! That was a scary guy standing and gesticulating alongside all those coconut shies!

    I did agree with some of it – power corrupts and business is bigger than government but nothing new there.
    I suppose it meets the good old US of A’s aims to drive Greece away from NATO and into the arms of the Russians or Chinese, great excuse to start to take over the med and get McD burgers in every remaining taverna… 😕

    Thinking about that with Russian or Chinese running Greece then the people will then realise what good ‘proper socialism’ will do for them; everyone (except the elite) will be equally poor and downtrodden and all will be equally humiliated ic_shock

  • #195104

    Sancho the Fat
    Participant
    Neophyte

    @kolofarthos wrote:

    Did watch Sancho’s video link explaining how it is all down to US big business ganging up on the little nations …..and declaring it wasn’t suggesting a conspiracy! That was a scary guy standing and gesticulating alongside all those coconut shies!

    I did agree with some of it – power corrupts and business is bigger than government but nothing new there.
    I suppose it meets the good old US of A’s aims to drive Greece away from NATO and into the arms of the Russians or Chinese, great excuse to start to take over the med and get McD burgers in every remaining taverna… 😕

    Be careful with heavy irony (“good old US of A” “aims to drive Greece away from Nato”, “McBurgers” “coconut shies” “a scary guy gesticulating”, etc). It leaves the point unanswered. Try to model your style on William Cobbett or George Borrow – plain, clear and unadorned.

  • #195105

    Sancho the Fat
    Participant
    Neophyte

    @kiwi wrote:

    Sancho well done, but I’ve given up trying to shrink the urls, it just takes to long and I don’t have the patience http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-16/global-risk-china-europe-us-greek-impasse-hits-markets

    How to shrink a url – http://learn-bbcode.blogspot.co.uk/2007/09/instructions-on-inserting-live-links.html 😈

  • #195106

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Sancho shrinking the urls was taught to me by Ian until the poor guy must have left Greece screaming and praying to lose wifi so as not to be asked another dumb question :)) I will study your link.

    Kolly. No I am not obsessed nor am I some fanatical ex communist. I am merely reiterating what most Economists, regardless of their leanings are saying and now seems obvious. What they are asking of Tsipras is MORE than what they asked from the previous governments and that model does not work. I remind you that it is now common knowledge thanks to whistleblowers that Kosta Karamalis of the Conservative party two elections back tried to do a deal with the Russians for gas, because it was good for his country and there was an assassination attempt and threats to his family which were thwarted because the Russians warned him in time. The USA was not happy with him…………

    What makes you think that not agreeing with stupid austerity terms that have practically wiped out Greece in the last years means that China and Russia will take over? The world has changed kolly. Mr Hoovers Reds Under the Beds no longer exists. Both those countries are now as capitalist as Europe. Go to China and see the wealth some people have, and check out the Russians that go to Greece and London and are buying up zillion dollar property. NZ is full of Chinese students that are embarrassingly rich and spoilt. It’s people of a certain age that remember the Cold War and its propaganda that have these unfounded fears.

    It’s ridiculous to assume that just because Tsipras leads a Socialist part that suddenly Greece will be taken over by Russia if they don’t accept terms that are continuing the same stupidity as before. France has a Socialist in power, I don’t see Russia and China banging on their door.

    If Tsipras wanted to go with the ‘evil communists,’ he would have done it from day one instead of negotiating and reiterating daily that Greece does not want to leave Europe, it just wants a change to the failed terms of the last years and a chance for growth, not a continuance of the same poison.

  • #195107

    Sancho the Fat
    Participant
    Neophyte

    @Shazzie wrote:

    I’ve said it before but – MY BRAIN HURTS !!!!

    It’s not difficult. Essentially, the ‘reverse slope’ tactic involved finding a suitable ridge and placing your soldiers, lying down, behind the crest. And there they waited, watching, invisibly organising their formations, bullets, grapeshot, cannonballs and so forth whizzing safely over their heads, until the enemy charged over the top of the ridge to attack. At which point they stood up and shot them. Every one of Wellington’s Peninsular War victories was won like that, and so was Waterloo. As he said later, “they attacked in the same old way, and in the same old way we shot ’em”.

    Success depended on various things, but crucially on character. As well as courage, the defenders needed steely patience; they had to be able to count on the enemy army eventually charging (no water, ammo running out, a character-defect in the other commander…); and the position they held had to be carefully chosen. Wellington was said to have spotted the potential of the ridge at Waterloo years before, which seems implausible, but the fact that people said so shows how they appreciated the vital importance of position.

  • #195108

    No Wall
    Participant
    Neophyte

    Kiwi, this is what we can all look forward to when your heroes take the country over the edge:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-16/how-greek-capital-controls-would-work-if-aid-talks-collapse-q-a

    And, independently from the above, just how do the pensioners and civil servants think they will get paid when the country does not generate sufficient internal income, without the need for foreign funding? Presumably they can enjoy spending their IOUs.

  • #195109

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    They are not my heroes no wall and it’s a pity that’s the only impression gleaned from my comments. Objectivity demands that we don’t blame a new four month old Government whoever they may be for the sins of the past five years. I am just as fearful of losing money in this situation as the next person, but it doesn’t stop me seeing the situation for what it is and not for what I would like it to be.

    Anyway, it’s good to see you back in the forum.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-16/telling-lies-democratic-right a few tidbits to ponder.

  • #195110

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Here’s some comment that makes hoarding under the mattress seem not as risky. Check your pockets and share what country codes you have on your euros. I am curious if In Greece the majority of notes are Y or something else. I will check my stash tomorrow.
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-16/how-find-what-country-euro-note

  • #195111

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Forgive me if I am wrong, please, but I have not seen anyone posting that all Greece’s past ills are to be blames on Tsipras and his new Government that, by and large, are trying to stick by their mandate of ending austerity in specific areas and nobody has claimed that all can be resolved in the 3/4/5 months you quote Kiwi. Just nothing or too little has happened to help the situation!

    We do not all agree in this discussion about the best way forward and that is good a for a healthy debate however several object to the apparent lack of action to at least start (or continue) to make Greece’s financial position better by tackling the major root causes and also objections to implementing some farcical changes. The debate is interesting, does not help progress but may give relief to frustrations.

    One of the unresolved big issues in the Troika/Government discussions is the level of pension payments, not by comparison to other countries, but what Greek can afford. Greek pension costs, if I remember correctly, overall is a similar percent of GDP to Germany but the Greek GDP is mainly internal circulation of money. As such it cannot afford to have a high pension cost and hope to get the country back on it’s feet ( so say many leading economists that, incidentally, I rate rather than internet bloggers).

    Tsipras often says he will not cut pensions for the poor, laudable that is, but that has not been demanded of him for continuation of the loans. All he needs to do is put forward a proposal to reduce the overall cost, by such possibilities as increasing efficiency, raising minimum (or even median) pensionable age, hit the rich. etc. Other countries are doing it ( I know to my families cost) so why not Greece? His first actions (well there are some you see) has been to reverse some of the efficiencies that Greece has badly needed to keep popularity before the country can afford them and thus antagonise the lenders he badly needs to get agreement from. No wonder things appear to stagnate.

    The fact that he and his team could meet most remaining requirements but stubbornly refuse to do so only spouting popular-isms and not taking action to come to an agreement is a worry. If he cannot meet his electoral obligations AND keep Greece afloat he should admit it and get on with the consequences as the longer it all drags on the worse will be the outcome most particularly for the Greek people and financial systems – oh, and a few bankers that I couldn’t care less about! [ sorry rich bankers…]

    It could be that it is all too late that he has inherited a dire situation that there is no answer to. Indeed UK economic journalist Robert Peston has recently written that is the case. Why prevaricate and make the people suffer? That surely cannot be a good socialist policy.

  • #195112

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    no water, ammo running out, a character-defect in the other commander

    wow is that a comment on how you see the Greeks, Sancho, or the Troika?

    That piece about Waterloo and the tactics is spot on and you should have gone further! Moreover as the Scots at the battle documented one of the sad repercussions of the tactic was that they were ordered to stand up and face the advancing 14,000 strong French infantry, became cannon fodder and would have been wiped out but for a last minute charge by the Scots Greys to break up the French advance. The Greys cavalry were subsequently decimated after bravado made then carry on to attack canons ! The day was only won when Prussian help finally arrived.

    It ended as a bloody field with over 50,000 deaths and many more injuries over about 9 hours. A very heavy price to pay on both sides.

    I trust that Wellington’s positioning is not what you advise to be the Greek tactics? Shazzie wants to get rid of her sore head not get clobbered by a ball!

  • #195113

    sundodger
    Participant
    Homeric

    I have come to realise that all of this heavy thinking, in depth scenario comparison, copying & pasting of links or opinions varying from the inteligent to the ridiculous, matter not a jot to whatever, or whatever not may happen. I have also come to realise that life is for living & endless debating on a subject that we have absolutely no control, is purely “pissing in the wind” It’s Summer, it’s hot, I’ve a fridge full of beer & a beach to myself. Yes the situation here is dire…..Me – I’m going for a swim ! :mrgreen:

  • #195114

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Amen to that brother Kolofart…………..
    and Amen, Amen & Amen to you too brother Sunnypodger….. reb_bravo

  • #195115

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @kiwi wrote:

    …….. Kolly. No I am not obsessed nor am I some fanatical ex communist.

    :mrgreen: :roll: :roll: :roll: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :unibrow: :unibrow: :roll: :roll: 😆 😆 ic_wink

  • #195116

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    I note that, for the first time, Greece’s central bank suggesting that Greece is heading for default, exit from the Euro and from the EU. I believe momentum is building in that direction and find it sad…….

    but……..

    I think I’ll follow Sunnyboys lead and bow out of discussions for now just in case we get some sun over midsummer in my Northern climes…..it’s very precious!

  • #195117

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Too right sunnyboy! I learned that a long time ago that we are all farting into the wind when we argue over what will be and who was right. The big picture has already been drawn by those we cannot ever touch.

    The one reason I like young Tsipras, and regardless of whether he is left or right is that he looks and so far is, clean in actions and mind. He appears honest. I can’t say that about most politicians. It also takes courage not to blink while being hammered from the most powerful. I think that is also the reason why people have gathered in Syntagma square to support him and his popularity is rising. Sincerity and common sense goes a long way and as the Greeks say, a sunny sky does not fear lightning.

    Kolly, sorry I don’t agree with your comments that the Greeks have done nothing. Each time they have gone to the Eurogroup meeting in agreement with the majority of their requirements plus with fresh options for growth, the Eurogroup have shifted the goalposts again and again. This has led to a great deal of frustration by the Greeks. I don’t know where you get your information that the Greeks have not made any efforts to chase tax evasion etc. I watch the news in Greece over the Internet and some of the debates, and there are always new measures being implemented. For years the last government had a huge list of wealthy people that had offshore accounts, given by Ms Lagarde, and out of the hundreds of names about five were ‘investigated.’

    Sweet for some having sun. Here we have black clouds and high winds. However, small light in the tunnel is a possibility I may be able to swoosh over to Greece for a short foray if all goes well. Fingers crossed!

  • #195118

    Sancho the Fat
    Participant
    Neophyte

    @kolofarthos wrote:

    no water, ammo running out, a character-defect in the other commander

    wow is that a comment on how you see the Greeks, Sancho, or the Troika?

    That piece about Waterloo and the tactics is spot on and you should have gone further! Moreover as the Scots at the battle documented one of the sad repercussions of the tactic was that they were ordered to stand up and face the advancing 14,000 strong French infantry, became cannon fodder and would have been wiped out but for a last minute charge by the Scots Greys to break up the French advance. The Greys cavalry were subsequently decimated after bravado made then carry on to attack canons ! The day was only won when Prussian help finally arrived.

    It ended as a bloody field with over 50,000 deaths and many more injuries over about 9 hours. A very heavy price to pay on both sides.

    I trust that Wellington’s positioning is not what you advise to be the Greek tactics? Shazzie wants to get rid of her sore head not get clobbered by a ball!

    The “no water, ammo running out, a character-defect in the other commander” was about possible reasons for the French at Waterloo attacking. It’s easy to think of others.

    I have a feeling there was more than bravado behind the Scots Greys’ charging on too far. Maybe in any case it was extremely difficult to stop, let alone reverse, a cavalry change – cf. Balaclava – and that more than a deliberate decision or spirit it was momentum that kept them going. Perhaps we should also try to factor in the effect on our historical imagination of Lady Butler’s famous picture (painted much later – she had a thing about heroic soldiers), and the Victorian romantic idea of the wild, brave Scots.

    It would be interesting to re-read War and Peace on cavalry in the Battle of Borodino. Fuller might have something to say too.

  • #195119

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    A different tactic. Am still wondering who will blink first. Their eyes must be very dry by now.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-17/greek-debt-committee-just-declared-all-debt-illegal-illegitimate-and-odious

  • #195120

    Sancho the Fat
    Participant
    Neophyte
  • #195121

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Exactly…they are trying to undermine Tsipras.

  • #195122

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @kiwi wrote:

    Exactly…they are trying to undermine Tsipras.

    YAWN!!! ic_shock :mrgreen:

    As my Scottish wife would say if she were so inclined towards Chiparas…. pair wee bairn! What did he ever do to deserve that? :roll:

  • #195123

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic
  • #195124

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic
  • #195125

    Sancho the Fat
    Participant
    Neophyte
  • #195126

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    I think the EU is acting like one of those Nigerian emails. We have 7billion euros in an account, please send 1.6 billion so that we can unlock this account. For gods sake, just take the sum owed off the sum you are about to give them and stop this messing about.
    Surely they can’t all be this dense, this is such a simple solution.

  • #195127

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Thanks Sancho, that Telegraph article above encapsulates exactly what is happening and what the Greek people already know, and what those that listen to the ‘leaked’ propaganda that is destabilising Greece need to read.

    That was the the best most clearly written commentary I have read in a long time. I add it here again in case it gets lost in the replies http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11687229/Greek-debt-crisis-is-the-Iraq-War-of-finance.html

  • #195128

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Keep an eye on enikos for updates on today’s big news.

    http://en.enikos.gr I’m going to sleep and looking forward to tomorrow’s news. My bet is that they give them only enough to pay the IMF at the end of the month so they don’t officially default, and then, back to the blinking game.

  • #195129

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    I just hope that they don’t come to an agreement at the last moment and that Greece defaults and leaves the Euro! Otherwise, this will just go on and on until the time comes when they won’t be able to come to an agreement, only by then, they’ll be in the brown stuff considerably deeper than they are now! 😕

    And what with our glorious PM, Mr chipshop stating that the answer is to tax businesses harder, Greece will never get out of this situation, as the only way to stimulate the economy is to trade out of it by stimulating business, rather than supressing it…… sheer insanity!

  • #195130

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Well you will be happy to see that their eyes are all still quite dry. Still in the euro and in the same limbo with a small tranche of money by the ECB. Now Grexit is postponed for a few days yet again.

    Watch out kp…I heard Putin has conspired to join forces with Tsipras to root out all those purporting to be paupers. Better put all that gold you have in the deep freeze, in a box and bury it under an olive tree. 😆

  • #195131

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    Looks like I’ll have to sell my yacht to my Caman Island company :) If you have seen the video of the cat on a small plane wing then you will like this http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03351/ADAMS20150624_3351128b.jpg

  • #195132

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Ha ha is that meant to be Tsipras, the cat with the grin being watched by Hollande and Merkel.
    I saw a glimpse in the run up to the news showing a cat on a plane, but it looked terrified and I didn’t actually see the full report.

  • #195133

    Alien
    Participant
    Oracle

    http://www.nu.nl/videos/4073269/kat-vliegt-per-ongeluk-mee-vleugel-van-vliegtuig.html

    At 0.43 seconds you see something appearing in the right top corner 😀

    End of the story is: the cat (Tsipras?) ran away……

  • #195134

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    Ah but the pilot did turn round and land to let the cat off, not sure Merk and Hol will do that.

  • #195135

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic
  • #195136

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    The amount of money being made by traders, and those in high places in the know will be in the billions. This Grexit game is probably the most lucrative game in town. Media reports no deal…BUY low, media reports deal being done, sell on the rise. Who is to say that this game is not being perpetrated on purpose to fill the personal coffers of the Bilderberg group, Goldman Sacs, leaders etc. Its a buddy club. Hermes scarves are expensive… Let’s not forget that when Papandreou announced that Greece was going to the IMF suddenly there was about 500 mil in mummy’s account. Just sayin…

  • #195137

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @kiwi wrote:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-24/no-deal-tsipras-says-creditors-did-not-accept-greek-proposal

    This game has more facets than a diamond.

    So fish and tchipera falls back on playing the victim!
    He tweeted: “The repeated rejection of equivalent measures by certain institutions never occurred before-neither in Ireland nor Portugal.” ……….. Perhaps that’s because when they were negotiating with Ireland and Portugal, the Irish and Portugese were savvy enough not to play the ‘manga’ with them and try their hardest to upset everybody they spoke to in some sort of ill advised brinkmanship which backfired?

    He also tweeted: “This odd stance seems to indicate that either there is no interest in an agreement or that special interests are being backed.”…… Ah the old, “if they’re not accepting my terms, then it’s not my fault, nor the fault of the stupid games I’ve been playing with them, nor is it anything to do with me leaving the world thinking that I can’t be negotiated with as I’ve upset everybody in my so called negotiations, but it must be their ‘special interests’?? 😯 Yes, of course, it’s everybody else picking on him! :roll:

    Again, as I’ve said before, he just needs to face up to the fact that he was a naive little boy trying to play the tough guy, the manga, with the big boys and it’s blown up in his face and now he should stop trying to hold on and either quit and let a capable person take over and repair the damage he’s done in Greece’s relationships with their creditors OR if he insists on staying on and continues to think he’s fit to govern, then he should quit the Euro and let Greece go it alone and stop listening to the Russians who are trying to convince him to do all he can to stay in the Euro simply because they are using him and because they want to have one of their own puppets inside the EU!

  • #195138

    No Wall
    Participant
    Neophyte

    agreed as above with KP

  • #195139

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    So kp exactly what did he do wrong. What was the game of brinkmanship you mention he played. Just curious to hear.

  • #195140

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic
  • #195141

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @kiwi wrote:

    So kp exactly what did he do wrong. What was the game of brinkmanship you mention he played. Just curious to hear.

    Very simple Kiwi…. It was a bit like me playing poker at a table of highly experienced poker players, when I’ve never played in my life, with absoloutly no good cards in my hand, so relying on a total bluff (which all the other players know) and then to exasperate it all, not pulling out of the hand when I should have, but keeping it going and just pushing the pot up for the sake of it, as I couldn’t possibly win and so just succeeding in annoying the rest of the players who can never take me seriously again.

    The chap came onto the scene as a protest vote of the Greek electorate against the establishment (understandably) and immidiately thought that he could change the whole structure and culture of the EU and push his leftist view and become some sort of hero of the Greeks, without taking the time to understand the implications of his actions and demands…… All he has managed to do so far is to frustrate everybody during his steep learning curve of negotiating…. now he seems to have finally clicked that he can’t and won’t get his way and is trying to make enough concessions to appease his creditors, though it will upset most of his party and many Greeks in general, as he had promised a ‘new beginning’ with no concessions……….. consequently, he may well water down his demands enough to make them acceptable to his creditors and be able to stave off the default – this time!
    But some months down the road, he’ll be in even deeper as the next tranche of repayments will be due and without any real changes in the economy, he’ll be in the same situation once again and will have to go through all this again, making yet more unpalatable concessions and yet being even deeper in debt by that time! ……….. All this is only treating the symptoms of the problem, without getting to the cause, which is the need for drastic and painful surgery of the cancers in Greece, which are not just ‘past old guard’ (although they certainly carry most of the responsibility), but also the unrealistic expectations of the people who do not want to make any sacrifice or go through any surgery to get better!

  • #195142

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    And the creditors actions renegging at each negotiation, and asking for more than what was acceptable before when the last party was in power…do they not take any blame for the breakdown of negotiations? Insisting that Greece continues to borrow money which mostly goes only towards a compounding debt and leaving nothing for growth. Same recipe as before that the creditors insist on, makes the same cake. Does it make sense?

    Try the same recipe on your bank manager when you can’t afford to pay your mortgage and are in debt to the bank and everywhere else. Do you think he would slap you on the back and give you more money only so you can pay him back the interest you owe, and then tell you to go back home and do exactly what you have been doing for the past five years, which has been proved not to work and guaranteed never to get you out of the poo. It’s a ridiculous situation that would never happen in a lender client relationship.

  • #195143

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    Well actually, if you owe the bank a thousand pounds, they will hound you to hell and back but if you owe them a million, they will fall over themselves to increase your borrowing.
    Sky, surprisingly, said that any defense cut will annoy the army which, given their history of coups, could be a factor in the govt being reluctant to cut defense spending.

  • #195144

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Kiwi, I keep going to pains to explain that I am not taking ‘sides’ here as such…. As I keep saying, I do not believe that the EU have acted either honourably or well, probably not morally or ethically either and I think that they’re a bunch of slime balls I would love to see fail in a spectacular manner!
    HOWEVER, my point is that due to Tsipras negotiating ‘techniques’ (if one could streatch to call it that), he has failed to deal with them on a realistic basis, being that they are holding the best hand at the moment!
    He has had endless opportunities to play them at their game and has insisted on getting all the players backs up and building their hostility to him as he’s played his game of bluff, as if he held all the cards, which wasn’t a bluff, as everybody knew exactly what he held.

    To use your analogy of the bank manager, if you go to a bank manager as a business in default, because they know that they do not want to lose everything you owe them by just going bankrupt, they will often try to work with you to get you to trade out of your situation, in the hope that they can hold you together long enough to either see you trade out of your situation, or long enough to get you to the end of their term at that bank, where they pass the problem to another manager!
    As with the EU, the bank manager will set certain conditions and associated targets and as with the EU will expect you to carry them out…. The EU is not asking them to continue to do what they’ve always done! The EU is asking them to make certain changes, but chipshop is resisting the changes and thereby lays the problem…. Greece wants to be able to continue to give unreasonable pension terms to certain sectors (better terms than most of Europe), Greece wants to continue to have lots of nationalised businesses to run themselves, rather than privatising, Greece wants to demonise free enterprise, rather than accepting it’s the answer to getting them out off the poo, etc. etc…
    In short, Greece wants to not need to repay their mortgage, yet get more money and not have to make any changes……

    But again….. I do not support the EU and never have done and would love to see it go down a big black hole, but I’m enough of a business man to recognise, that when there is a big system in place which is accepted by most, then you need to work around it and try to change it from within, not with a big sledgehammer from outside…… OR if you have the opportunity and feel that strongly about it, then leave it!
    How does it go?….
    “O God, give us the serenity to accept what cannot be changed,
    The courage to change what can be changed,
    and the wisdom to know the one from the other”
    :roll:

  • #195145

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    You and I won’t solve the worlds problems kp. I guess it all depends on which media and which hype and story one believes and it is pointless to waste energy arguing about matters we have no control over. I just heard Wolfgang Schauble in a press conference saying not to believe what is written in the papers. Good advice.

    As a business man I can only hope that you don’t really believe that if you fail, the bank won’t bankrupt you and take everything you own, but only after they keep you afloat long enough to drain every last penny. Once you sign, they own you. They are not your friend, and your comment on them helping you until the next bank manager comes along is not correct. When you fail, they have a special section that you get handed over to, which ‘works’ with you. This section works on a commission/bonus and that’s where the politeness stops and the hard tactics begin. The bank manager just smiles and says its out of his hands now and is always the nice guy.

    I just woke to killings on the beach in Tunisia. Sickening world we live in. I pity our innocent grandchildren.

  • #195146

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic
  • #195147

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    I may be a bit thick but how can the EU bunch insist they cut pensions whilst putting up VAT on medicine and electricity ? Then also whack up the VAT on hotels and dining which is one of the most important revenue streams for income from abroad ? No wonder he has gone to the people.
    Can’t help thinking that this was the strategy all along though.

  • #195148

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    Time to buy gold I think. Romania is looking dodgy look at this

    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/romania-falls-short-bailout-reform-074318221.html#x7TPBhD

  • #195149

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    http://www.zerohedge.com the entire front page of the site is full of Greek News. Worth keeping an eye on. Don’t stop at the first page, news is running fast so keep going through the other pages at the bottom.

    Does anyone else find it strange that The Independent has hardly a word on the Greek crisis, and they are running it near the bottom of the page in a small section. The Tunisia massacre is top news understandably. Timing is everything as always. Sad times…

  • #195150

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle
  • #195151

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    People have no need to panic. I have been listening to Greek radio and the message coming through is that there is enough cash to replenish the ATMs and people need to calm down and not listen to the doomsdayers, nor clear out all the rice and spaghetti from the supermarkets.

    This could be a blessing in disguise as The Telegraph states. Already the stance is becoming softer. Leaders are saying they don’t want Greece out of the Eurozone etc. The Prime Minister has stated..no one can kick Greece out of the euro, or the Eurozone.

    There is a lot of fearmongering going on to scare people into compliance and to vote Yes to the proposals. Let’s just see what Monday morning brings.

    Interestingly in the referendum vote in parliament, the KKE communist party voted against a referendum…because they wanted another two questions put on the paper referring to whether Greeks want out of the Euro, as if it was their referendum, duh! Then, the Nazi far right party Golden Dawn, voted WITH Syriza for the referendum, go figure.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-27/greek-butterfly-effect

  • #195152

    rover
    Participant
    Neophyte

    With all due respect Kiwi, I’m afraid you are a little way off reality, you are not here and are not witnessing the reactions of citizens, There is no money in any of the ATM’s and I have tried dozens in northern Greece, Edhessa, Kastoria, Konitsa, Nothing. What happens on Monday from a political perspective is irrelevant. People , especially the poor re unable to access cash.

  • #195153

    Sancho the Fat
    Participant
    Neophyte

    @rover wrote:

    With all due respect Kiwi, I’m afraid you are a little way off reality, you are not here and are not witnessing the reactions of citizens, There is no money in any of the ATM’s and I have tried dozens in northern Greece, Edhessa, Kastoria, Konitsa, Nothing. What happens on Monday from a political perspective is irrelevant. People , especially the poor re unable to access cash.

    Banks in Cyprus were closed for over a week, I think. Have you stocked up with fuel ?

  • #195154

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    Just heard Banks and stock exchange closed tomorrow. We live in interesting times.

  • #195155

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    http://www.enikos.gr/politics/326188,Tsipras-Diasfalismenoi-oi-mis8oi-kai-oi-syntaxeis-BINTEO.html

    In Greek but in the first paragraph he states that all deposits are secure and that pensions and wages will be paid.

    There was also an announcement on Greek radio by the combined oil companies who have told people not to panic that there is enough oil held in Greece to last for months and that petrol stations are being replenished as fast as they can but a run on petrol has not helped.

  • #195156

    the reiver
    Participant
    Oracle

    Ok so the ordure has hit the fan. We got our maximum from the ATM at lunchtime but now the banks and stock exchange are closed Monday and maybe for six days.

    I don’t like arguing politics or religion, but how can the Government call a referendum and then tell the people how to vote ? 😕

    Anyway, all we can do is sit tight and see what transpires.

    8)

    ps. never mind Sunny boy’s bacon sarnie, we had roast silverside tonight ………….. lovely !

  • #195157

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-28/ignoring-tsipras-plea-calm-greeks-storm-atms-stores-gas-stations

    What floored me in the photos was people lining up outside Kotsovolos…why would you be panicking to buy an appliance at such a time? One commenter was as curious as I am as to why foreign media isn’t reporting that much.

    And of course my daughter and family are going to Crete for a holiday on Sunday. She doesn’t know a single person there so let’s hope no calamities. Argh…Timing is everything!

  • #195158

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    The powers that be must say there is no problem (cash wise, food wise or fuel wise) even if there is and it is shown to be a lie otherwise they would just encourage panic.

    As a born sceptic I would immediately think the opposite if told no need to panic by those in power! They have started that message too late. The rational thing to do is plan carefully and not panic but that is not human nature of the vast majority. Serious risk though that if things do finally all fall apart, any cash in accounts will be worth less soon and hard currency very valuable in that situation.

    One commenter was as curious as I am as to why foreign media isn’t reporting that much.

    Not sure which reports you see or read Kiwi but plenty in the UK with some unbiased comment and all does not look well. So that commentator is mistaken. Both sides of the negotiations are digging big holes ( getting entrenched ) and shovelling faster as the days, hours and minutes pass……

  • #195159

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    The announcements re oil were made by the major oil companies not the government.
    The ECB has said it will continue to fund Greek banks on the same level as before but won’t increase that amount. There will be a ceiling of 60 euros per day on withdrawals.

    From the BBC
    ‘The European Central Bank says it not increasing its emergency funding for Greek banks, amid fears that Greece may default on its debts on Tuesday.’ The magic word is increasing, therefore they will keep funding at the same level…tiny drips as before.

    Athens Syntagma Square gatherings…
    Monday, the No people with Syriza
    Tuesday, the Yes people on the Samaras side,
    KKE the communist party is on Weds I think. Just heard it on radio. Choose your poison. 😐

  • #195160

    Sancho the Fat
    Participant
    Neophyte

    @kiwi wrote:

    The announcements re oil were made by the major oil companies not the government.
    The ECB has said it will continue to fund Greek banks on the same level as before but won’t increase that amount. There will be a ceiling of 60 euros per day on withdrawals.

    From the BBC
    ‘The European Central Bank says it not increasing its emergency funding for Greek banks, amid fears that Greece may default on its debts on Tuesday.’ The magic word is increasing, therefore they will keep funding at the same level…tiny drips as before.

    Athens Syntagma Square gatherings…
    Monday, the No people with Syriza
    Tuesday, the Yes people on the Samaras side,
    KKE the communist party is on Weds I think. Just heard it on radio. Choose your poison. 😐

    THe FT this morning seems to be with the noes:

    June 28, 2015 7:17 pm

    The road to Grexit and beyond

    Wolfgang Münchau

    When a shock you predicted actually happens, it still feels like a shock. Alexis Tsipras was right to walk away. But it was a momentous decision nevertheless when the Greek prime minister rejected an offer that would have allowed it to pay its debt to the International Monetary Fund and the European Central Bank. What I am struggling to understand is why he suddenly decided to call a referendum on whether to accept a bailout for next Sunday.

    There might be some super-smart strategy behind this beyond my capacity to comprehend. The problem with the referendum is that the offer on which the Greek people are asked to vote is no longer on the table. And the programme to which it relates expires tomorrow at midnight. Why should the Greeks vote Yes to a package the creditors themselves no longer support?

    By far the biggest tactical error committed over the weekend, however, was the rejection by eurozone finance ministers of a five-day extension of the Greek bailout programme to beyond the referendum. With that decision, they foreclosed the only way to keep the show on the road. They have unwittingly strengthened the political argument of the Greek prime minister. He will now be able to say: first the creditors wanted to destroy the Greek economy with their austerity programme. And now they are hoping to destroy Greek democracy.

    To see where all this might be going, it is instructive to go through the various scenarios, eliminate the implausible and see what is left.

    If the Greek referendum on Sunday goes ahead and concludes in a No vote, Grexit probably beckons. If the result is a Yes, there will be initial confusion. A vote to accept the bailout may be interpreted as a vote in favour of remaining in the eurozone. In that case I would expect the Greek government — whoever that may be after a Yes vote — to maintain the regime of capital controls and introduce a parallel currency, denominated in euros.

    A parallel currency scenario could split into three directions: Grexit within a short time; a regime where Greece defaults but maintains the capital controls indefinitely; and a scheme where the controls are eventually lifted and Greece remains in the eurozone.

    The latter would require a resolution for the Greek banks. That would be the ideal scenario but it is hard to do. Since the eurozone lacks a true banking union, the only route to bank recapitalisation would be through another round of negotiations between Greece and its creditors.

    Specifically, it would require a programme by the European Stability Mechanism, the rescue fund, to bail out the Greek banks. The purpose would not only be to strengthen the banks, but also to ringfence their capital from the Greek state. In the meantime, the ECB would need to keep up its programme of Emergency Liquidity Assistance (ELA).

    The ECB is already pushing, and may soon be breaching, the legal limits of what it can do. It continues the ELA for now, but has capped the amount available for lending. As a result the Greek government decided to close the banks and impose capital controls.

    For a bank recapitalisation scheme to work, the European governments and Greece will need to come together very quickly, with an open mind and a positive attitude. The parliaments of the creditor countries would be asked to come up with money for the Greek banks, while the Greek state defaults on them. I leave readers to work out the mathematical probability of such an event, and move on to the next scenario.

    Of course not. It would have to be a completely new programme, since the old one expired. Greece will, by then, have defaulted on both the IMF and the ECB. The creditors dealt with Antonis Samaras, the head of New Democracy, before when he was prime minister. When he was in power, he made promises that were not fulfilled. By the time trust is rebuilt, the Greek economy will be in full meltdown.

    The conclusion I draw is that there are two probable outcomes. This first is an indefinite regime of capital controls, perhaps with a bank restructuring later as part of a broader package of debt relief. This would leave Greece inside the eurozone.

    The second scenario is Grexit. The first would be preferable. The second would still be preferable to the deal Mr Tsipras rejected, or a return to a pro-austerity consensus.
    My biggest concern is a political one. What happens if the Greek electorate voted Yes but Greece is still forced out of the eurozone because the creditors and the ECB left them no other choice?

    This scenario would be the most toxic of all. It will imply that a monetary union without political union can only exist in violation of basic principles of democracy. It will come to be perceived as a totalitarian regime.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c9c5de02-1d90-11e5-aa5a-398b2169cf79.html#axzz3eQvFXV4r

  • #195161

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Good article sancho. The problem is that the creditors don’t want Tsipras because he is not what they wished for to put it politely, and they fear giving in will breed more Socialist parties in the Eurozone. Therein lies the real crux of the problem.

    How come when I try to read FT it wants money? Obviously you rich on zimmer frames can afford the subs.

  • #195162

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    So have I understood incorrectly? ECB to keep funding Greek banks at current level I.e. no more than they currently have rather than keep on giving more on top of current level? So if no funds going in and funds being withdrawn…….. :( ..well that is my understanding at present!

  • #195163

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    From a news article (BBC) I note a link to a press release by the EU regarding the current proposal that has been rejected by Syriza et al.
    Not seen except indirectly what has been released by the Greek Government, but it does seem very general and reactionary without telling the people what is specifically being rejected. Has there been anything from the Government other than reactionary rhetoric?

    The EU has published via it’s online database the wording of the creditors proposal. There are some tough requests, some very sensible improvements sought and some that Syriza and some of the population would object to ideologically plus the need to implement things already agreed and enshrined in law.

    See the full works via the web http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-5270_en.htm

    Only fair if you are going to vote in a referendum you know the information!!……and as nobody else has posted a link………..

  • #195164

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @the reiver wrote:

    Ok so the ordure has hit the fan. We got our maximum from the ATM at lunchtime but now the banks and stock exchange are closed Monday and maybe for six days.

    I don’t like arguing politics or religion, but how can the Government call a referendum and then tell the people how to vote ? 😕

    Anyway, all we can do is sit tight and see what transpires.

    8)

    ps. never mind Sunny boy’s bacon sarnie, we had roast silverside tonight ………….. lovely !

    Reiver…. I believe there’s talk of Greece going back to it’s roots of breaking up into ‘fifedoms’ again, so you could apply for ‘King of Mani’, or ‘Prince of Stoupa’! :mrgreen:
    If you do and need a court jester, just make sure that my application gets it’s due consideration! :mrgreen:

  • #195165

    the reiver
    Participant
    Oracle

    @KP wrote:

    my application gets it’s due consideration!

    As long as it’s in a brown envelope it’ll get considered. :nod:

    @KP wrote:

    need a court jester

    I applied a few years ago for the post of village idiot, and only came fourth ! :unibrow:

    Just got back from Stoupa after having a sundowner, and it’s situation normal down there, you wouldn’t know anything is amiss.

    8)

  • #195166

    sundodger
    Participant
    Homeric

    Watching this all unfold, from a very warm Stoke on Trent. Got a few days left before joining the Frey & heading back to the hovel on the hill. Bringing back a bag full of euros, so no need to bother with ATM’s for a while. Whatever happens, will happen, but at least I will be back in the centre of the known universe :))

  • #195167

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @sundodger wrote:

    Watching this all unfold, from a very warm Stoke on Trent…….. :))

    What’s a ‘stoke on trent’…. is it were retired stokers go? Why would you want to stoke on a trent anyway? :roll:

  • #195168

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @the reiver wrote:

    @KP wrote:
    my application gets it’s due consideration!

    As long as it’s in a brown envelope it’ll get considered. :nod:

    @KP wrote:

    need a court jester

    I applied a few years ago for the post of village idiot, and only came fourth ! :unibrow:

    Just got back from Stoupa after having a sundowner, and it’s situation normal down there, you wouldn’t know anything is amiss.

    8)

    You think you’ve been hard done by in your application? I actually supplied a fully stuffed fakelaki in hope of winning that post of village idiot, but you still beat me to it!

  • #195169

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    It’s bit heavy…….
    That could be the exclamation at check in as you catch your Aeroflot flight from East Midlands!
    That could be your bag Sunnyboy, overweight! Just how many Euros weigh 20Kg? reb_popo

    Come to think of it though excess baggage cost must be quite cheap if all the excess is cash! ic_wink

    My mind is now running riot just thinking about the possibilities, stall in the Peloponnissos, shout of ” buy one rasher, get one Euro free!” or “get you black puddin’ here,special gift inside every one”

  • #195170

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    I am so jealous! All the best Fifedoms will be gone with all you wealthy fakielaki stuffers.

    I love all the rumours and comment from the foreign media. You can soon see which way their wind blows.

    I watched on Greek TV the Turks offering to make a payment for Greece with zero interest, in good faith to help Greece and ensure calm. Rather noble I thought.

  • #195171

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    I would have thought the Greeks would rather consider mass suicide than to take a single penny from the Turks given their history.

    Have a look at this if you have some spare cash https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/greek-bailout-fund#/story

    Cynic that I am, I can’t help thinking that this is more self promotion than a serious attempt. I could be wrong and Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and others could chip in the odd 500,000,000 Eur that they find down the back of the sofa which would help.
    Still, good on those people who have donated, bless them.

  • #195172

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    hahaha, this is great stuff! 😆

    Also Kiwi and Jodevizes, I can’t decide who to be more suspecious of, the Turks wanting to ‘help’, or the shoe shop worker from Bethnal Green trying to raise cash and sell Greek foods and drinks? :roll:

    Must say, I love the second one… wish I’d thought of it first! :mrgreen:

  • #195173

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    I wonder if I write to him he will send me the money to buy my flat in Athens, that will help at least one Greek person.

  • #195174

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    I admit when I heard the Turkish minister announce it my first minds eye picture was Lemmings jumping over a cliff. I also wasnt certain about the way the Greek announcer said thanks…was that a little narrowing of eyes and gritting of teeth I saw?

  • #195175

    Sancho the Fat
    Participant
    Neophyte
  • #195176

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    The Guardian piece is the best analysis I have read. That is exactly what they are doing…trying to discredit and trample a democratically elected government…and where? In the cradle of Democracy.

  • #195177

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    I still cannot understand why the Euro lot want to insist on the Greeks selling off their Electric company. Ok, so they get a chunk of money for it now but then all the profits that would have gone to the govt will end up in the pockets of a private company abroad. How is that a solution?
    Their idea of negotiations is just do as we tell you or else.

  • #195178

    Sancho the Fat
    Participant
    Neophyte

    @jodevizes wrote:

    I still cannot understand why the Euro lot want to insist on the Greeks selling off their Electric company. Ok, so they get a chunk of money for it now but then all the profits that would have gone to the govt will end up in the pockets of a private company abroad. How is that a solution?
    Their idea of negotiations is just do as we tell you or else.

    Private company abroad = Siemens, maybe ?

    Cf. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsqa-YHE36A

  • #195179

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    I am hardly ever in favour of selling off the family jewels.
    I am also not in favour of blindly believing in nationalisation.

    However in some cases there is justification for either approach. Nationalised concerns rarely (but sometimes) work efficiently and with minimum bureaucracy and probably the supply of electricity could be one such case.

    One of the big pushes by the creditors is to get Greece working much more efficiently and thereby better for the country as a whole. By crikey there is much opportunity for that, who would deny that?

    There are of course downsides too to private management but these can be regulated out by Government, given the will and knowledge!!

    I do realise of course that it does not suit all those ideologically well left of centre but if you want the capitalist funds you have to ensure you can pay them back and realising your assets is one to resort to. Maybe considered a last resort, but if not to be done then propose something else to produce the funds!

    Labour market protectionism might be good to preserve a few jobs in the short term ( such as Pireas harbour where feet are being dragged) but it will not get the country, and by definition it’s people, back on it’s feet.

    It is really the stage of decide to go with the proposed solution or suffer the consequences. I can well understand some people thinking the alternative (whatever that is!) to the bailout conditions being more palatable.

    main causes of the current impasse: left leaning Government trying to deal with right leaning creditors many of whom are politicians and their views seldom converge; and Greeks being ‘ advised’ by someone else what to do, and that never goes down well; real frustration and hardship over the austerity makes people clutch at popularist promises as a solution; too little change over the last few years and a belief that history justifies that lack of improvement rather than addressing the root causes.

    However I do not think the impasse will last long now. Politicians are realists when it comes to their own jobs!

    On dear, I join the debate again…….. :roll:

  • #195180

    Sancho the Fat
    Participant
    Neophyte
  • #195181

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Cherry picked this statement from the above

    Schulz said: “New elections would be necessary if the Greek people vote for the reform programme and thus for remaining in the eurozone and Tsipras, as a logical consequence, resigns.”

    In an outburst that was extraordinary coming from the most senior official in the EU parliament, he argued that the radical left Syriza government should be replaced by a technocratic administration.

    “If this transitional government reaches a reasonable agreement with the creditors, then Syriza’s time would be over,” he said. “Then Greece has another chance.”

    How much clearer does is it…they refuse to accept a democratically chosen government and are punishing the people who dared to vote them in.
    Imagine anyone saying the same against Germany’s democratically elected leader.

  • #195182

    No Wall
    Participant
    Neophyte

    So, and taking account of what Kammenos said yesterday, is Greece to look forward to military intervention next week if the yes vote wins, to “protect” the warring factions of yes and no…..

  • #195183

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    No, no wall. What Kammenos said was twisted around to make it look bad. There is a video of what he said and a transcript. I tried to run the translator over the Greek but it was hopeless.

    Kammenos is married with five kids…I hardly think he is the militant, revolution sort.

    Here in Greek for anyone who is able to read Greek.
    Δεν θα κουραστούμε να λέμε ότι η ψυχραιμία, η νηφαλιότητα, το καθαρό και ανοιχτό μυαλό είναι το ζητούμενο αυτές τις δύσκολες μέρες πριν από το δημοψήφισμα . Και είναι μάλλον επικίνδυνο να γίνεται προσπάθεια να εμπλακούν οι Ένοπλες Δυνάμεις σε σενάρια …αποσταθεροποόησης τα οποία φαίνεται ότι σε κάποιους αρέσουν πολύ!

    Αυτοί που τα “αγαπούν” αυτά τα σενάρια δεν είπαν κουβέντα όταν δύο Επίτιμοι Αρχηγοί Γενικών Επιτελείων σε συνεντεύξεις τους στο Onalert.gr είχαν καταγγείλει ότι δέχτηκαν εντολές για χρήση στρατιωτικών τμημάτων σε μέτρα ασφάλειας τάξης. Ο ναύαρχος Κοσμάς Χρηστίδης ήταν ό ένας , ο στρατηγος Γκίνης ο δεύτερος. Τσιμουδιά δεν έβγαλε κανείς!

    Τώρα μια ατυχής έκφραση του Καμμένου παρουσιάζεται περίπου ως …προετοιμασία εξόδου του στρατού στον δρόμο! ΛΑΘΟΣ η φράση του ΥΕΘΑ και δεν μπορούμε να γνωρίζουμε πως του προέκυψε. Τι είπε;

    “ Οι Ένοπλες Δυνάμεις της χώρας διασφαλίζουν τη σταθερότητα στο εσωτερικό, την προάσπιση της εθνικής κυριαρχίας και της εδαφικής ακεραιότητας της χώρας, τη σταθερότητα σε σχέση με τις συμμαχίες της χώρας”. Το “σταθερότητα στο εσωτερικό” , “μεταφράστηκε” πολύ εύκολα από κάποιους ως πρόθεση για να χρησιμοποιηθούν για αποστολές στο εσωτερικό της χώρας.

    Μια εβδομάδα πριν ο ΥΕΘΑ Πάνος Καμμένος ήταν στο στούντιο του Onalert.gr. Ρωτήθηκε γι΄ αυτό ακριβώς το θέμα ,της χρησιμοποίησης του στρατού σε αποστολές “εσωτερικής ασφάλειας”. Η απάντησή του στο απόσπασμα της συνέντευξης θα λύσει πολλές απορίες.

  • #195184

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle
  • #195185

    Sancho the Fat
    Participant
    Neophyte

    Live from Syntagma – http://webtv.ert.gr/ert3-live/

  • #195186

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    The pressure on people to vote Yes…the unfair scare tactics used are incredible. Tell me on Tuesday if it was done. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-03/greek-banks-considering-30-haircut-deposits-over-€8000-ft-reports

    Sorry I can’t get the link to work but worth reading that the government has asked FT to withdraw the statement…a bit late after its expounded gleefully world wide.

  • #195187

    Ian
    Participant
    Homeric

    @kiwi wrote:

    The pressure on people to vote Yes…the unfair scare tactics used are incredible. Tell me on Tuesday if it was done. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-03/greek-banks-considering-30-haircut-deposits-over-€8000-ft-reports

    Sorry I can’t get the link to work but worth reading that the government has asked FT to withdraw the statement…a bit late after its expounded gleefully world wide.

    If it’s only a rumour, then it’s a criminal act to start such a rumour.
    Anybody in Greece who has, so far, practiced restraint in withdrawing their money from the banks will now certainly do their utmost to get as much out as they possibly can. : (Cannot blame them)

    If it’s not just a rumour and the banks are actually considering this it’s also criminal, it’s simple and plain theft. 👿
    And it’s not even pretending to target “the rich money-grabbers”, with a haircut of 30% on everything over €8000 it aims for the thrifty workers and the one-man businesses. 👿

  • #195188

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    Well they did it in Cyprus. The Russians had a shed load of money there. A lawyer told the BBC that a number of her clients had lost millions when they did it.
    Theft pure and simple.

  • #195189

    Shazzie
    Participant
    Oracle

    Sometimes it pays to be a pauper – they can’t take what you haven’t got so no worries !!!

  • #195190

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Yes but in Cyprus they took over the 100 k deposit mark, and don’t forget that amount is guaranteed safe in Europe. Greece is still in Europe no matter if the vote is yes or no! Therefore it’s clearly a designed statement to frighten the poorer Syriza supporters.

    Mrs Katseli who is President of combined Banks and was the ex PASOK finance minister…good straight talking lady, made an announcement today regarding that FT story, denouncing it as scaremongering and giving facts on the state of the economy, and that from Monday there will be an announcement as to what will be done with the banks.

  • #195191

    Sancho the Fat
    Participant
    Neophyte

    @Shazzie wrote:

    Sometimes it pays to be a pauper – they can’t take what you haven’t got so no worries !!!

    There’s a way round that. They persuade you and make it easy for you to buy something even if you haven’t got any money, then they’ve got your debt to them to their credit. Like with student loans.

    Here’s how Berlusconi was got rid of – http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n10/perry-anderson/the-italian-disaster

  • #195192

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Where do you find this stuff sancho. Brilliant piece that describes what is happening in Europe perfectly. Note that FT has always featured in disinformation, and the helpful Economist in conveniently leaving out what doesn’t suit the status quo.

    Worth reading in full when one has the time. Eye opener that makes one realise that we are simply pawns that think we shape our own futures by our franchise to vote. Blind, powerless sheep is what we are.

  • #195193

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Very conveniently on the morning of the referendum this announcement comes from Martin Schulz. Tell me this is not blackmail.

    On Sunday morning Schulz told German radio that, in the case of a ‘no’ vote, the Greeks would be effectively leaving the euro.

    “Is Greece still in the euro after this referendum? That is certainly the case, but if they say ‘no’ they will have to introduce another currency after the referendum because the euro is not available as a means of payment,” he said.

  • #195194

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    I would say that the time is right for the people of Europe rise up and throw them all out but I think we would just get another bunch crooked cretins in their place.

  • #195195

    Ian
    Participant
    Homeric

    I found this rather amusing… 8)

  • #195196

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    It is a case of Do as I say not do as I do.

  • #195197

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Very true, Jo, but even though it upsets those who do pay taxes, Cl paying tax will not solve Greece’s problem! Perhaps tackling the still high levels of corruption ( from the top down) and the black market economy (reportedly worth 26% of Greece’s GDP) would be a better idea…..

  • #195198

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    The trouble with that is that you need someone at the top who can instigate the reforms but they need to be corrupt in order to get there.

  • #195199

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @jodevizes wrote:

    I would say that the time is right for the people of Europe rise up and throw them all out but I think we would just get another bunch crooked cretins in their place.

    What was the quote which one of the Admin of this board – Assimilate – had as a footer on his postings?
    Something about the present democracy is always the best one till the next democracy comes along? What was it?

  • #195200

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Samaras just resigned.

    I can still remember the speech at Zapeion which got him voted in and how he reneged on almost every promise. At the time, I also thought he might be a fresh change and would make changes.

    Now…que sera sera.

  • #195201

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    This looks like a vote between the haves and have nots. I heard on the BBC that the vote in a rich area of Athens was 80% yes whilst down in the harbour area of Pireas the vote was 80% no.
    Scarily, one TV pundit suggested that the ECB would hold back a while on funding to teach the Greeks a lesson.
    Don’t mess with the big boys.
    Once again we live in interesting times.

  • #195202

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    Have a look at this http://youtu.be/RzExcF-UPV0 Max Keiser report.
    This is the latest http://rt.com/shows/keiser-report/271909-episode-max-keiser-780/

  • #195203

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Dear me the biggest load of rubbish I have seen in a long time! Not only can I not understand how people produce such poor programs I wonder why some watch it!

    Thanks Jo, I will bypass such links in future.

  • #195204

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    Sorry you feel that way. I have found that often what he talks about today comes true or comes to light later on. I agree he does has a grating style.

  • #195205

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Yes not for me Jo but please do keep posting things of interest. :nod:

  • #195206

    Shazzie
    Participant
    Oracle

    Now this I CAN understand. From an article in City AM today :

    European conservatives, particularly in Germany “are about to destroy Europe and the European idea” over their demands to make Greece repay its debt, economist Thomas Piketty has said.

    Speaking with German newspaper Die Zeit,, the outspoken economist claimed it was “a joke” that Germany was demanding Greece repay the €1.6bn (£1.1bn) owed to the IMF, the ECB and the European Union.
    Germany is the country that has never repaid its debts. It has no standing to lecture other nations,” Piketty said.

    He noted that Germany was “the single best example of a country that, throughout its history, has never repaid its external debt”.

    “Neither after the First nor the Second World War,” he said. “However, it has frequently made other nations pay up, such as after the Franco-Prussian War of 1870, when it demanded massive reparations from France and indeed received them. The French state suffered for decades under this debt.”

    He went on to claim Germany was “profiting from Greece, as it extends loans at a comparatively high interest rate”.
    However it was not just Germany that came under the spotlight: Piketty also noted that Britain had spent more of its budget repaying debts accumulated during the Napoleonic wars than it did on schools and education.

    “That didn’t have to happen, and it shouldn’t happen today,” Piketty said, claiming this was the “completely ridiculous” option currently being recommended to Greece.
    Instead, he called for a Europe-wide restructuring of debt and greater flexibility between countries of the EU.

    “Europe was founded on debt forgiveness and investment in the future,” he said. “Not on the idea of endless penance. We need to remember this.”

    He added: “Those who want to chase Greece out of the Eurozone today will end up on the trash heap of history.

    “If the Chancellor [Angela Merkel] wants to secure her place in the history books, just like [Helmut] Kohl did during reunification, then she must forge a solution to the Greek question, including a debt conference where we can start with a clean slate. But with renewed, much stronger fiscal discipline.”

  • #195207

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Cool…. following that logic, as Germany has never repaid it’s loans and subsequently Greece is not paying their loan, so we need to continue the trend and all need to refuse to pay our loans? :mrgreen:
    I’d better get out there quickly and get myself a substantial loan which I can then refuse to pay! I’d hate to be left out of all this…. :mrgreen:

  • #195208

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Shucks KP beats me to it in far fewer words! reb_popo reb_bravo

    Shaz “renewed, much stronger fiscal discipline” is probably required, I bet we all agree with that!

    The examples quoted are probably quite true but the most outstanding debt repayment witnessed was surely the British Lend-lease debt acquired from the USA during WWII which was only completely repaid a few years ago, at long last!! A far better example IMHO. The debts forced onto Germany by the winners of the two wars could easily be argued as unjustifiable.

    So, PIketty suggest that the two examples attributable to Germany should excuse all others from paying their debt? Also ‘ He noted that Germany was “the single best example of a country that, throughout its history, has never repaid its external debt” ‘ That may well be true but I feel Greece has a good record too! I have read only today that between 1836 and 1932 Greece defaulted on it’s debt no less than nine times. Perhaps creditors could have been warned but we reasonably thought things had moved on for all the countries of the EU and financial governance improved.

    However, even though it is a simple to understand article and there are historic debts all over it is not really relevant to the current situation. Yes there are politicians, businesses and people in general of all political persuasions and those who profit from misery and the debt. Greek debt is currently not owed solely to Germany but the Germans, French, Italians, Spanish, IMF, Netherlands etc, in that order.

    Is he truly suggesting we can all run up debts, spend, spend, spend and ignore the consequences? Do we agree with him just because we can at some stage make a case for a loan? I think it is just journalistic muck raking!

    I can make a good case for some people I know who are in desperate need ( Kiwi probably thinks I cannot) but please send some money that they will honourable repay. I will then tell them they have no need to repay because what was termed a loan with agreed conditions should be treated as a gift!

    Crikey even Alexis Tsipras said the Greek debt will be honoured….. but now they are asking for another haircut. Make of that what you will.

    ……..however do add it to the suggestion box thread to just ignore all debt.

  • #195209

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    Tsipras has just addressed the parliament concerning Germany being let off its debts. This is getting messy, God knows where it will go. I wish I knew just what is going on behind this issue.
    Meantime I am sitting here waiting to move but filled with uncertainty.

  • #195210

    Shazzie
    Participant
    Oracle

    I’d better get out there quickly and get myself a substantial loan which I can then refuse to pay! I’d hate to be left out of all this…

    Oh good point KP ! Why didn’t I think of that ?! reb_bravo
    Obviously well experienced paupers see opportunities others don’t !!! 😆 😆

  • #195211

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    Just a thought, do any of these politicians really want to be known as the one in charge when the start of the Euro break up started?
    Maybe not.

  • #195212

    SuzyQ
    Participant
    Neophyte

    It was an interesting session of the parliament. Shame the EP TV live stream was totally useless for the entire duration! Good job we have ERT back for that at least (although RIK seemed to be better). I can’t get why the EU doesn’t hear the alarm bells ring when some of the staunchest support for Tsipras comes from the far right! Who’d have believed it. Trouble is, even Farage’s policies were actually more specific than what Tsipras is offering. In his letter to the ESM he literally just states we will make tax and pension reforms :
    (Google it … I cannot find the original English document I saw this afternoon at all)
    Jo, it seems they aren’t thinking of the political cost. Just the money in the short-term. But there’s plenty of political cost, financial cost and geopolitical cost involved here. IS is practically on the doorstep in Turkey, do they not even see the implications of that? That’s without considering what message the handling of this situation is giving to European citizens. Did you hear the statement of the Poles …? They are watching and waiting to see what ‘punishment’ will come for Greece … who will be next? Will the Poles want to join the game under these sort of threats? WHat kind of European family do we want? Certainly not this type.

    Oh well 😕 … back to watching Wimbledon on the net, at least my ISP is paid up for now.

  • #195213

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @Shazzie wrote:

    I’d better get out there quickly and get myself a substantial loan which I can then refuse to pay! I’d hate to be left out of all this…

    Oh good point KP ! Why didn’t I think of that ?! reb_bravo
    Obviously well experienced paupers see opportunities others don’t !!! 😆 😆

    Looking forwards to tomorrow with yourself and Bea when I can share more of my substantial experience of paupership…. by the way, please bring a few thou with you to lend me…. I promise to pay it back quickly! … Honest German and Greek I will repay it! :mrgreen:

  • #195214

    Shazzie
    Participant
    Oracle

    Absolutely KP – perhaps you can put the junior KP-ites as collateral ?
    Not that we don’t trust you of course – but Shila says HE is a bit suspicious, and he IS the one with the financial acumen !!

    See you tomorrow – Olives and Oil in hand !

  • #195215

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @Shazzie wrote:

    Absolutely KP – perhaps you can put the junior KP-ites as collateral ?
    Not that we don’t trust you of course – but Shila says HE is a bit suspicious, and he IS the one with the financial acumen !!

    See you tomorrow – Olives and Oil in hand !

    We’re all looking forwards to spending the day with you…
    Please apologise to Bea about me leaving her thinking we were still at the old address! I wasn’t really trying to avoid you (only because you have the olives and olive oil), but it was Shila I was avoiding! :roll:
    See you tomorrow….

  • #195216

    Shazzie
    Participant
    Oracle

    Fear not sir – Shila is staying home, with Grandad as doggie day care !!

    Just us Olive oil smugglers will land at your door – begging bowls in hand of course !! 😆 😆

  • #195217

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @Shazzie wrote:

    Fear not sir – Shila is staying home, with Grandad as doggie day care !!

    Just us Olive oil smugglers will land at your door – begging bowls in hand of course !! 😆 😆

    Well, that’s a relief….
    Good that you’re bringing your begging bowl, we can go to my favourite street corner to do some begging together (once we’ve moved on the Romanians there) and you’ll see a master in action! Look and learn..
    Though I am concerned that the last time you stood on a street corner with me, the local constabulary didn’t believe that you were only begging and you got us nicked! …. I mean, I ask you, do I look like a pimp? :mrgreen: So please be careful what you wear this time! :roll:

  • #195218

    Shazzie
    Participant
    Oracle

    😆 😆 😆 😆

  • #195219

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Nice to see some new blood Suzy. I watched ERT from their website and listened to all the speeches. Many for many against. Wow, some of them can get nasty and personal.

    The far right suggests Greece leaves but with kind words. What was striking were the faces of some. Steely, and unyielding faces. Schultz had his lips pursed most of the time and Juncker was not much better. Body language was not positive. Tsipras spoke well I thought. I just heard that Merckel visited Serbia and Albania and has offered Albania money while telling them that Greece was bad and was not paying their loans. What kind of nasty game is she playing, visiting the neighbours and giving support there while laughing and pointing the finger at Greece. Her timing was well chosen.

  • #195220

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    I am feeling if all this was written as a film script or a book we would all view it as a bit far fetched!

    At least now we are being entertained by the dinner party combatants, bit like the awful TV program….
    Will we get to hear what goodies KP cadges on the streets to turn into Gordon blue fare and will it make Shaz and B sick before or after they post a review? Perhaps taking the dog and hiding it under the table as a dustbin might be the safest option!

    Yet again perhaps Mrs KP will have that Scottish capital delicacy of chips with salt’n’sauce prepared and will save the day……. 😆 Don’t mention the deep fried battered pudding!

  • #195221

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    You may be correct kolly. We will wake up one morning and find it was all a new Reality Programme.

  • #195222

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Even the bad reality show dinner parties have a focal point for discussion…. with us it will inevitably be the failings of the Greek economy, which must of course be highlighted in the meal itself! :roll:

    BTW Kolo, I’m pleased that you assumed ‘deep fried battered pudding’, as opposed to that Scottish luxury served up in all Scottish chip shops up your way – Deep Fried Mars Bars – as we couldn’t possibly afford a luxury like Mars Bars! So it’ll be deep fried Mars Bars, without the Mars Bar! :mrgreen:

  • #195223

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    I loved it when Junker came over and took the OXI placard off the desk of Farrage. They, of course have history. Farrage berated him when he was appointed, saying nobody knew who he was and nobody (the populace) had elected him.

    Oh just heard that the French intellectuals are talking about getting France out of the Euro. Also Poland is having second thoughts about joining.

    Hang on to your hats everybody.

  • #195224

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic
  • #195225

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    Well the EU is really sticking it to the Greeks. I cannot see them accepting, so much so, my OH is now looking at properties in France.

  • #195226

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Oh Dear Joe…you will have to move to the France is home site 😀

  • #195227

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    reb_popo and put up with the French 😆

  • #195228

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic
  • #195229

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    @kiwi wrote:

    Oh Dear Joe…you will have to move to the France is home site 😀

    Oh god no all those poncy Brits talking about their wonderful little places in Provence and Dordogne and how it is soooooo difficult to get a decent cup of tea.

  • #195230

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @jodevizes wrote:

    ….. Oh god no all those poncy Brits talking about their wonderful little places in Provence and Dordogne and how it is soooooo difficult to get a decent cup of tea.

    Jodevizes, I assure you that the scenario you describe isn’t limited to France! Have you ever been to Stoupa, on the Mani, some 40 miles from Kalamata? :nod:
    Well, I’d better don my flak jacket and tin hat before our ex-pat Stoupa’ites begin their barrage! :mrgreen:

  • #195231

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    That’s why I am going to Athens, easier to avoid.
    By the way, is Germany planning a way to get errant governments into line ? :)

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/breeders-die-deadly-new-brain-6044663?ref=yfp

  • #195232

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic
  • #195233

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    Given that,apart from tourism, Greeces’ main things are Olives, olive oil and feta, all produced by farmers,
    this is what they are voting on ?
    Increasing the tax rate of farmers from 13% to 26%
    Abolishing the fuel subsidy in agriculture
    Introducing stricter criteria for identifying as professional farmers.
    Oh and when you go to the shops you can add 13% VAT
    This is total madness. It is either going to kill off the economy or drive the tax evasions sky high.
    Note to self, pack flack jacket and tin helmet.

  • #195234

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Maybe it ain’t over till the thin lady sings…

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-14/imf-rips-pandoras-box-shreds-demands-greek-debt-relief-far-beyond-what-europe-has-be

    Interesting thing is that since Tsipras signed, his popularity is still growing. Just listening to Greek radio calling him charismatic after the speech to the nation last night. Will try and find it with English subs.

  • #195235

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    I heard that Tsipras did very well in his interview. Basically telling everybody that they could leave the EZ which would mean years of misery or take the deal which was not the best and is very hard but goes to make Greece stronger. He told them that everybody has to play their part and pay their taxes. That means the rich and not so rich alike. Said their was not an agreement until the last hour.

    Then the IMF has published the report (which was leaked) that they don’t want to be involved and that Greece cannot repay all its debts. This was done as the Greeks and other countries are about to vote on the deal.. I am not normally into conspiracy theories, but the timing of this does seem to have a rather bad odour.

  • #195236

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Not sure about conspiracy Jo but certainly vested interests and it shows the weaknesses in some parts of the potential agreement much of which is sensible and what Greece needed but some harsh things too as you have already pointed out. I still feel it was the only offer on the table and really wonder if it will be accepted today, probably will, but the Government will be seriously weakened and those internally with vested interests will resist change, so suspect it may all fall apart yet a bit further down the road. If the IMF is right then it is almost certain that depression will only deepen further, and then what?

  • #195237

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Am just listening to the Greek parliament now and it’s amazing the compliments that are being thrown at Tsipras, mostly mentioning his sincerity and charisma. In fact that word charisma keeps popping up everywhere about Tsipras at present. I agree. He has the sincerest and most natural manner. When you think how young he is too.

    Of course the other parties were always accusing Tsipras of plotting to get out of the Euro and becoming a child of Russia. Wrong on all counts. This vote will be interesting and who knows what we wake up to tomorrow.

  • #195238

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Now I’m really suspecious of Tsipras!
    How can he still be popular after so totally screwing up and selling off Greece and still be popular? 😯
    I suspect this may suggest that he is really the Anti-Christ who is due any time now and has hynotised the masses around him in some supernatural way! 😈

  • #195239

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    You may possibly be right kp. Who knows. I remember the last left wing charismatic, Obama, was also called the antichrist.

    Thinking…hell might not be such a bad place to work toward if Tsipras will be there fronting the receiving line. Good thing that Scauble isn’t the antichrist.

  • #195240

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @kiwi wrote:

    You may possibly be right kp. Who knows. I remember the last left wing charismatic, Obama, was also called the antichrist.

    Thinking…hell might not be such a bad place to work toward if Tsipras will be there fronting the receiving line. Good thing that Scauble isn’t the antichrist.

    :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :unibrow: :unibrow:
    Just to show you that I still love you kiwi! :mrgreen:

  • #195241

    Ian
    Participant
    Homeric

    That’s some real clever photoshopping there KP. 😀
    If I didn’t know better I’d have thought that he actually looks like that! :nod:

    :mrgreen:

  • #208489

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Interesting little article that will soon be available on BBC website as a podcast link to text the article

  • #208558

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    It is getting heavier thanks to the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership negotiations going on. The Americans are complaining about DOCs which means that do not want Feta to be exclusively Greek. Cheeky buggers.

    Can’t find a link so here’s the full story, apologies

    European Union plans to seal the world’s largest free trade deal with the United States are threatened by intractable differences over food names, none more so than the right of cheese makers to use the term “feta”.

    Negotiators talk of accelerated progress and hope to thrash out a skeleton agreement on a Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) within a year, aiming for a major boost to growth in the advanced Western economies.

    But geographical indications (GIs), a 1,200-long list ranging from champagne to Parma ham, present a major headache.

    At the same time as euro zone leaders are ordering Greece to balance its budget and liberalize its product markets, EU trade negotiators are fighting to defend its signature cheese.

    GIs are a cornerstone of EU agricultural and trade policy, designed to ensure that only products from a given region can carry a name. To the United States, it smacks of protectionism.

    “It’s politically extremely important in Europe. As (the EU) phases out direct agricultural support, there has to be a trade-off by promising to do more in trade policy,” said Hosuk Lee-Makiyama, director of the European Centre for International Political Economy.

    “For 20 years they have been fighting about it at the World Trade Organisation even if the economic value is disputed.”

    EU member states will have to approve any deal and will need food name protection as compensation for EU farmers facing a flood of U.S. beef and pork imports.

    Agriculture is not a sizeable part of either the EU or the U.S. economy, but farmers retain political muscle, as French livestock and dairy producers showed this week by forcing the government to offer aid after protests including road blockades.

    Washington does not object to protection of niche items such as British Melton Mowbray pork pies. But negotiators face a very difficult task to find a balance for widely produced feta, Parma ham or parmesan, the biggest maker of which is America’s Kraft Foods (KHC.O).

    The EU introduced GIs and designations of origin in 1992, securing protection for Greek feta, which means “slice”, 10 years later when it declared that non-Greek producers’ use of the term was “fraudulent”.

    6,000 YEAR HERITAGE

    It is a view echoed by Christina Onassis, marketing manager at the Lytras & Sons dairy in central Greece. She describes the unique plants and microflora of Greece’s mountainous regions and says feta “imitations” mostly use cow’s milk.

    “For 6,000 years, Greece has produced continuously using milk from ewes and goats,” she said. “We also ripen the cheese for days, which does not happen in any other feta production.”

    The issue is about more than just national pride for near-bankrupt Greece. Its feta exports rose 85 percent between 2007 and 2014 to 260 million euros, and sales to countries outside the EU more than doubled.

    U.S. agricultural and trade experts generally recognize the region-specific terms such as “Gouda Holland” or “Camembert de Normandie”, meaning that U.S. producers can still make and name their own gouda and camembert cheeses.

    However, they argue that the European Union has gone too far by including the likes of gorgonzola and feta – terms they say are not region-specific but generic like cheddar or mozzarella, which do not have GI status.

    “Show me on the map where feta is?” asked one U.S. trade negotiator.

    In fact, under EU law, the feta-producing region covers almost the whole of the Greek mainland plus the island of Lesbos. Only milk from here can be called feta.

    The European Commission says names can be protected even if they are not linked to a particular place. Feta, it says, is so closely connected to Greece as to be identified inherently as a Greek product.

    In 2012 several non-European food producers and associations, many from across the Americas, formed the Consortium for Common Food Names (CCFN) to fight what they see as Europe’s appropriation of generic food terms.

    “There’s nothing wrong with GIs, but is something a true GI or just a method of production?” said CCFN executive director Jaime Castaneda. “Most consumers do connect feta with Greece, but most also connect cheddar with England but it does not have to be made there.”

    U.S. producers, he says, could lose billions of dollars in income if they are forced to rename their products.

    BATTLE ALREADY UNDERWAY

    Even before an EU-U.S. free trade deal, Castaneda says U.S. businesses are already affected in countries like South Korea, whose trade accord with Europe includes GI protection.

    “It’s affecting us substantially in international markets, such as Korea, by preventing exports,” he said. “You see it too at international food shows in Europe. This is a never-ending issue.”

    Ron Buholzer, president of the family-owned Klondike Cheese Co. in Wisconsin, which makes award-winning feta and muenster cheeses, shares that view, deeming it outrageous that anyone would claim sole ownership of these names.

    “This is an economic issue for us, certainly, but it’s also personal – it’s about what’s right and fair,” Buholzer said.

    The United States says the EU system is unfair because many American producers of traditional products are immigrants from Europe or their descendants, such as the Buholzer family.

    It also notes that EU members have had doubts.

    Both Denmark and Germany took the Commission to court over its moves to grant Greece the exclusive right to use the name feta, with initial success in 1999 before losing in 2005.

    A compromise was found in the EU-Canada trade accord (CETA), allowing Canadian producers already making “feta” or “gorgonzola” to continue doing so, while new entrants would have to adopt other terms such as “feta-style”.

    Greece and U.S. dairy exporters have already called this unacceptable, highlighting the difficulties that lie ahead.

    (Reporting By Philip Blenkinsop; By Paul Taylor)

  • #208566

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    I have every sympathy with the

     

    EU producers and the use of GI status. It is unfortunate that it is called geographic. However the principle is important. When I purchase something I want it to be what the label tells me. Some things that have geographic associated names are just processes and not something specific and distinctive in that cheddar is a process much like the chorleywood process for making bread (well you know what I mean?) Other things produced are distinctive because of process AND ingredients and not necessarily associated with a geographic name such as feta, kalamata olives (from the kalamata variety of olive tree) or Stilton, which is not from the town of that name (if I remember correctly), Jersey milk (from Jersey cows). Anyone who has tasted real milk rather than that which has been adulterated will know that it is not just the animal that makes a difference but also the feed (have you tasted that from cows fed on turnips, …yuk) or honey from different plants (yummy) so you cannot necessarily produce a copy and say it is real. Only this week we hear of British sold cheese and tomato pizzas that do not contain real cheese, let alone real mozzarela. Let there be no fakery! We should fight for GI status and if they don’t like it tell them to get stuffed. The USA already has too much protectionism when it comes to them allowing imports!  Crikey it is only recently that they have allowed haggis into the states and anyone who has tried to export foodstuffs to the US will tell of all the hoops and bureaucratic nonsense that is involved – Greece may well be tame by tho

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by  kolofarthos.
  • #208568

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    se standards!

  • #208569

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    (Apologies still struggling with formatting and editing!!)

  • #208571

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    (Apologies still struggling with formatting and editing!!)

    That’s coz you’re so old and going senile…. Or is that because of all the single malt? :whistle:

    Whichever, I can almost identify with it… or I will do once I’m as old as you…. or even drunk as much single malt as you? :yahoo:

  • #208574

    Ian
    Participant
    Homeric

    U.S. producers, he says, could lose billions of dollars in income if they are forced to rename their products.

    No, way better for the Greeks to loose their market to the Americans than the other way round? :scratch:

    The United States says the EU system is unfair because many American producers of traditional products are immigrants from Europe or their descendants, such as the Buholzer family.

    He’s right, you can tell from the family name that the Buholzers originally came from Greece… :negative:

  • #208595

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Old, senile, drunk …….and then try formating on my tablet of stone on the new site…… :unsure:   :negative:

  • #209631

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    Varoufakis is being investigated.

    Amid cries of high treason, the country’s most senior state prosecutor, Efterpi Koutzamani, ordered the Greek parliament to examine an array of complaints brought by private citizens against Varoufakis.

    The Supreme Court prosecutor, who played a leading role in putting the far right Golden Dawn on trial, also asked a magistrate to investigate whether criminal charges should be brought against non-political figures, following Varoufakis’s admission of a plan to hack Greece’s tax service to set up the parallel payment system.

    “I would not want to be in Varoufakis’ shoes,” the conservative MP and shadow finance minister Anna Asimakopoulou told the Guardian.

    Meanwhile the banksters get away with daylight robbery. reb_popo   reb_popo

  • #209686

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    I’ll get in here before her down under….. :-)

    Now Varoufakis might have said hack according to the translation into Greek ( and back to English

    Varoufakis’s admission of a plan to hack Greece’s tax service to set up the parallel payment system

    but what actually happened was he said

    “a plan to ” hack, blech, cough, sneeze ” formally apply to copy Greece’s tax service to set up the parallel payment system as a fall back for the worst case should the government decide the draft plan was rejected by the nation” till he got the boot up the ar**. :-)  and the mid sentence coughing fit got translated……

  • #210279

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    He’s the new Fall Guy.  If he didn’t have a plan B there would be an outcry that he was incompetent. He has a plan B and he’s a traitor….guffaws. Just watch the documentary I put up about the troika and you have your answers.

  • #210317

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    Just a note, Stilton got its name from the town as it was the place where it was sold. I think the producers brought it there to market around the country (or more likely mainly London) and when asked about the cheese they said it was from Stilton.

    I guess they are on sale in Greece but here in the UK there is a german Company, Dr Oetka (or something like that) that sells frozen pizza, I think they even did an advert with an Italian theme. Don’t know whats in them as never buy them.

  • #210350

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Thanks for that clarification Jo. Am I getting mixed up with Melton’s pork pies? :wacko

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by  kolofarthos.
  • #210354

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Best just stick with the black sausage’s description and call everything a Kefalonian meat pie! Will try one out when there this month… :-)

     

  • #210379

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Kolo…. please would you upload an avatar, as it’s difficult to spot your posts?

    I’m happy to contribute a piccy of a kolo if you want? :)

  • #210397

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    If only they had listened   http://www.cityam.com/221362/milton-friedman-has-been-proven-right-about-gnomes-brussels?ITO=related-content

  • #210452

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    OK KP, I know you were fascinated with my wee fishing vessel, I’ll upload one this weekend, whatever floats your boat…..🚣

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