CRUNCH TIME

This topic contains 113 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by  KP 1 year, 11 months ago.

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  • #158706

    the reiver
    Participant
    Oracle

    OK, we’ve had all the discussions for and against everything that’s been happening.

    BUT,

    If you were Greek and had the choice, would you have voted Nai or Oxi ?

    I probably would have voted NO as a Grexit is probably better in the long run. Government would then really have to get to grips with the problems that we all agree exist.

    8)

  • #195246

    brenda
    Participant
    Hoplite

    I would have voted “ΟΧΙ”!

  • #195247

    sundodger
    Participant
    Homeric

    OXI,OXI,OXI… Nai, Nai, Nai…all amounts to the same thing really for the Greeks – Years of misery. I however would in the end have voted OXI & put two fingers up to the EU… But there again all my money is from theUK so an unfair question really !

  • #195248

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Oxi…sometimes it is better to cut off your own nose to ensure the others face also has scars to remember. I can’t even begin to understand the arrogance of Grrmany in this. Read zerohedge today, some pretty sad commentary.

    Next question in this poll. Do you think we will Grexit on Monday?

  • #195249

    the reiver
    Participant
    Oracle

    No. There may be some “Careless Wispas” but it will end in a fudge. ic_confused

    8)

  • #195250

    Shazzie
    Participant
    Oracle

    Yes, as the lesser of 2 evils I would also say OXI.

    As you say Dodger, years of misery either way, but I firmly believe the only way to get back on any firm ground is to leave the euro.

  • #195251

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    I think our yeses and oxi are confused. Some seem to be saying oxi to staying in the EU, which was not what the referendum was about, it was in essence about whether to accept more austerity.

    I am already receiving fearful calls from Greek friends asking how much it will cost to rent a place here. It made me sad that they felt so threatened. They said they fear for their jobs.

  • #195252

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    You are possibly accurate Kiwi, but people surely voted on what they thought it was all about and what the consequences were perceived to be.
    Virtually all the reports I saw were of people saying no to austerity and humiliation but yes to the Euro and EU and democracy, more or less as you say. Alexis did not seem to be realistic about the potential consequences of the vote but some here seem to vote on the consequences that are likely?

    I can not make up my mind (doh!) seeing down sides all round and believe it boils down to how much short term pain one could stand (assets devalued – if you have some- severe short term problems, better income from foreign pensions, feeling of pride, thinking things cannot get worse) and I do not think as a non resident that I could decide that. What a cop out eh? Spoil my paper!

    That does not change my belief that change needs to happen to address the problems and soon!

  • #195253

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    In many ways it was also a vote of confidence and trust in him, Tsipras. There is no doubt that most people like and trust him more than all his predecessors for one reason alone, he is so far clean. Everyone knows about the corruption of before, but average people are powerless to do anything about it. They can only moan about it. Ask any Greek and they will pour forth about all the scandals, but what can they do.

  • #195254

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    All I can say is that if it’s ‘Crunch Time’, it’s an awfully long drawn out ‘cruuuuuuuunnnnnnnnnnch’

    Quote: “If the vote returns as a ‘NO’ on the Sunday, then the following day I will be in Brussels and come away with a quick agreement”…………… Well I wish that he’d hurry up as I’m going blue in the face holding my breath! In fact, I might just have a nap as I wait……… a loooooonnnnng nap!

    As for Voulowhatsisname…. remember when I said that he was simply ‘repositioning’ when he ‘resigned’?
    Well, it’s becoming painfully clear that he was simply repositioning in order to be out of the fray when all these non-existant agreements promised end up covered in the smelly stuff…. so that Mr V’s ‘replacement’, the sacrificial goat, gets slayed for it, then Mr V is untainted and can come back when the time is right as the reinstated, untainted hero who “should have stayed to sort things out and then it would have been okay, but was forced out by the EU who feared him, but isn’t it great that he’s back?” type person!

  • #195255

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    I also noted the untainted kirie T selected the rather well connected kirie V as his finance minister! Talk about pulling the wool over peoples eyes.

    Not saying kirie T is necessarily corrupt too but perhaps pleasantly inept and misguided………..

    Would love to have to eat my words having witnessed some good positive action 😥

  • #195256

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Well… it seems not so much of a ‘crunch’ as a ‘gasp’ as Mr Tsips submits his ‘proposal’ which is…… errr… err… everything he promised it would never be?? 😯
    The whole platform of his election and the agony of his arguments with the creditors ever since, amount to absoloutly ‘zilch’, ‘zero’, ‘nothing’, ‘tipota’……. 😕
    The whole raison d’être for the referendum is totally negated and the wishes of the people which were finally watered down to ‘not to accept’ the demands of the creditors, seem to have been ignored and amount to nothing! 😯
    Now, watch the damage limitation spin doctors swing into action to justify Mr Tsips caving in and try to present it as a ‘victory’! :mrgreen:

    However in short, it seems that if this submition is as is reported, then the whole last months since the Mr Tsips got into power and the referendum have been wasted and have resulted in nothing! :angry:

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/09/greece-debt-crisis-athens-accepts-harsh-austerity-as-bailout-deal-nears

  • #195257

    altohb
    Participant
    Hoplite

    I think you are right on the face of it, but the crucial difference now seems to be that there is a chance of at least some debt relief, which could make all the difference in the long run. I suspect that, if that is the case, it will be sufficient to persuade people that the short term pain will be worth it for long term improvement.

  • #195258

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @altohb wrote:

    I think you are right on the face of it, but the crucial difference now seems to be that there is a chance of at least some debt relief, which could make all the difference in the long run. I suspect that, if that is the case, it will be sufficient to persuade people that the short term pain will be worth it for long term improvement.

    Yes ‘altohb’, I agree…. I don’t have too much of a problem with where we’ve arrived at, as it may at least put force Greece into a dicipline of much needed change, but it’s the journey which has been unbearable to get here, with all the subsequently pointless discomfort and people run over and ‘miffed off’ by all the pointless posturing etc… It was clear that Mr Tsips wasn’t going to get his way, but he still insisted on playing out the drama and claiming great things, which have amounted to nothing!

    I hate to say this, as Kiwi might be listening, so I’ll whisper :roll: …. but I was secretly hoping that Tsips just might be ‘the one’ and would hold onto his promises and convictions and stand up to the EU anti-Christ and take Greece out of the Euro at the very least! But alas, he’s showing himself to be just yet another full of hot air type politician, raising our hopes and raising himself on his own ego, while letting us down! :

  • #195259

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    I think most people would have been pretty upset to be out of the euro. They want some relief from austerity but are willing to pay a price to stay part of the EU and that’s what Tsipras has a mandate to achieve.

  • #195260

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @kiwi wrote:

    I think most people would have been pretty upset to be out of the euro. They want some relief from austerity but are willing to pay a price to stay part of the EU and that’s what Tsipras has a mandate to achieve.

    Silly me… and I thought that the mandate which the people had given him through the ‘No’ vote was different from the ‘Yes’ vote!
    His mandate was to relieve austerity and by calling the referendum to confirm that fact and illustrate it to the creditors and world in general, he didn’t leave himself any ‘wriggle room’….. so now we’ve swung to exactly what the ‘Yes’ voters were voting for, which was the willingness to pay a price to stay part of the EU!
    So although the ‘Yes’ voters lost the battle, they won the war! :retard:

  • #195261

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    Wow there is a bitcoin ATM being installed in Athens by a Spanish company although a little late. It had been planned a while back.
    Pic http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/704/amz/vivo/live/images/2015/7/10/3affa073-1800-41a0-aee8-1fa47964cb84.jpg

    Do you trust money in cyberspace ? I am not sure I do.

  • #195262

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Just read that Greece did sign a deal with Russia on gas?

    I am just watching a documentary on Greece. Interviews with the NOW homeless. People who had dignity and a roof over their heads forced onto the streets over these past five years. Signing anything right now is grasping at a sinking boat, hoping that it gives the battered new government some breathing space and relief of the misery of closed banks.

    I would not want to walk in Tsipras shoes right now. Its easy to sit on the sidelines pointing fingerss, with a cosy fat bank card that works and never having felt the fear of darkness and homelessness. It’s easy to be smug in a position of relative wealth.

    There are differences in the deal that has been signed. Among which this new agreement is for only three years not infinity, no IMF involvement It’s strictly a European deal. No requirement to show a surplus of 30 mil, now it is 17 mil. The July payments will be made at a lowered interest rate, and more importantly, for the first time…there is an agreement to negotiate in the coming months, the amount of the debt and its viability with a view to debt relief.

    Maybe it’s not a perfect deal and not all that he wanted, but it seems the other parties will stand behind him. I wish him the best of luck to make needed changes. ND just announced they would stand behind him. Let’s see what the vote will be. Sunday is crunch day.

  • #195263

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    Have a look at Farrage telling the EU off about Greece. Yes he is Eurosceptic but still.

  • #195264

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    Well well, all the hard work is undone by a few dickheads in the parliament telling Tsipras yes go and get the deal but we are not going to vote for any changes when you come back.
    So he’s off to Brussels where he is going to get his backside kicked because he can’t promise anything concrete.
    It makes me weep. :retard:

  • #195265

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle
  • #195266

    Ian
    Participant
    Homeric

    Not sure what it is with Mr Schläube.

    One’d almost think he’s got some personal grudge against Greece. 😕

    So now it is: “Kick them out for five years and if, by then, they’ve sufficiently recovered for us to make money off Greece again we’ll get them back in”?

    It seems strange that when Greece finally accepts all the conditions the “institutions” simply come up with more conditions… :roll:

  • #195267

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    There’s nothing strange about it Ian, it’s timing. Now it’s summer, inconvenient timing. They don’t want Tsipras Socialist Government. They are talking capital control for TWO months. Takes us to Autumn, September. Their plan is that by then people will be on their knees begging for anything, businesses closed people desperate, then snap elections after which they hope their lot gets re voted into power.

    There are already rumblings of elections, don’t forget the communist faction that went against the vote within Syriza.

    Schauble is hitting out at his nemesis Varoufakis and wants to see him grovel.

    How much more obvious is it that this is a dirty game. Right from the start of negotiations, every time the Greeks agreed, they moved the goalposts. This is exactly what they are doing yet again. How much more obvious is it that this is a dirty game designed to get rid of Tsipras. The man has done more than what any other Prime Minister before him has done, uniting all the parties. Unheard of in Greece. I watched after the vote, Memarakis the new leader of ND going over to Tsipras and shaking his hand. A sign of support and warmth.

  • #195268

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Setting aside the ‘extras’ asked by Greece (debt relief remainly) and any other ‘extra’ conditions that creditors wish, I think there is a big political element on all sides, it is after all currently discussions between politicians, democratically elected from many countries and they all have to answer to their voters (ignoring the unelected EU role holders).

    Not surprisingly one of the main sticking points is trust. Previously agreed conditions have not been implemented by Greece and Kirie Tsips, and members of his government, more recently have said they will do one thing and have done another, example go their own people to end austerity. Irrespective of what any of us think of any party to potential agreements (we are not there yet) to proceed trust needs to be established. There are many doubters.

    Also I understand that there is still a lack of detail on how the Greece proposed austerity agreement will be implemented in terms of process and timing. This also leads to doubts and gives no confidence to establish increased trust too. Remember that these same politicians have to answer to their own citizens. That is not conspiracy just fact.

  • #195269

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Mosts of the reports coming in is that there is a large element of punishing Greece. In fact the latest threat is bail ins…taking people’s money. They are trying to teach Greece a lesson. How can anyone deny this. Germany is boss, forget what the other countries say, Germany calls the shots. Now it’s whether Schauble agrees(may his wheelchair fold up and trap his miserable tongue).

    I just listened to that loud mouthed Giorgiadis screaming that Tsipras MUST sign anything put in front of him as it’s imperative to stay in the euro. Interesting how ND have suddenly become Tsipras best buddies nodding to everything.

  • #195270

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    You do not surprise me, Kiwi! We must read different reports!
    There I was thinking you put it all down to conspiracy theories and the banks ic_wink

    The sticking point at the moment is this lack of trust and the much bigger debt package in prospect with the serious chance that it could never be repaid estimated today at an extra €76B. There has always been a trust issue over a very long period and I guess, rather than in recent bailout deals, the creditors see less chance of gain and a very significant belief in extreme loss. In that case they take their time to come to their decision.

  • #195271

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    Here is what Tsipras has to do on Monday
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJudbnwUEAA1sI2.png:large

    Good Luck.

  • #195272

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    We done already, nai? Endaksi, siga siga….

    ……and apologies for the very poor Greek! 😕

  • #195273

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    But more seriously (and after my pc crashed) looking at BBC news reports there is still at this late stage no agreement and a lack of trust. The creditors seem to be putting forward the proposal that Tsipras goes back to his parliament and actually shows trust might not be misplaced by implementing some of the changes straight away ( given parliamentary approval! ) prior to an agreed deal. They are taking about three possible scenarios,
    Agreement and debt restructuring to somehow be tackled.
    Disagreement and Grexit.
    Disagreement and a temporary Grexit.

    Deal must be done today…..but then Tsipras given to Wednesday go show trust might not be misplaced and it also needs other EU parliaments to ratify……so maybe not a deal today and can kicked down the road yet again.
    In the meantime banks remain closed possibly all week, Syriza party members are turning against Alexis, businesses closing at a reportedly 60 per day and the people still suffer.

    On and talk of Alexis being supported by his new cronies……….!!!

  • #195274

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    I listened till 3am to various speakers including members of the Euro parliament. One that walks the corridors of power there concluded that the reason for the small countries like Romania , Bulgaria, Estonia and even Malta going against Greece was their vision that with Greece out of the way there would be more money for the smaller economies. Nothing to do with trust, self interest is the driving force. Merkel asked for Greek assets for collateral. Sure..why not just take Mykonos and the Acropolis. This is becoming a ridiculous round of humiliating Greece aka Tsipras.

    At this stage, I wish Greece would just pull the plug and really spoil the summer holidays for everyone.

    As for the internal problems of Syriza. I recall many calling Tsipras a hardline Communist. He has shown he is nothing of the sort. The hard line Communists were the ones that refused to vote, thus endangering the stability of the party. Monday should see a Cabinet shakeup.

  • #195275

    Ian
    Participant
    Homeric

    @kiwi wrote:

    At this stage, I wish Greece would just pull the plug and really spoil the summer holidays for everyone.

    I’m getting there too.
    On the one hand, though, I have no idea how that would pan out for Yiannis-in-the-street, on the other hand you’d think it could hardly get worse for a lot of Yiannises and Maria’s…

  • #195276

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    A great synopsis on what’s happening now.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-12/latest-out-europe-pretty-steady-level-shittiness

    Noting this most shocking part

    … if new money comes it will be secured from day one with Greek assets. In other words, any new money coming to Greece will be in the form of a DIP loan, secured with liens on tangible assets and when (not if) Greece is unable to repay, the creditors – who have created paper out of thin air – will be first to collect all too real Greek assets held in escrow in a Luxembourg subsidiary.

    If this is not a call for Greeks to revolt, I don’t know what is.

    I particularly liked the comments regarding Schauble. May he have nightmares for the rest of his days.

    Twitter followers may want to comment on #this is a coup, which is trending worldwide now.

  • #195277

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    I guess Tsipras will not be sitting down for a week after this shafting. I for one will not be buying any more German goods.
    I think it should be called the Geuro from now on.
    Disgusted.

  • #195278

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    So here’s the answer, all those trending worldwide an d those who think it is all down to Germany (certainly part of it is) should band together and put their hands into their pockets and make the loans to Greece ignoring the fact that maybe nothing will change, their loans are unsecured and it is almost certain they will never get repaid?

    Come to think of it the movement has already started so I hope all have contributed heavily.

  • #195279

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    So…no Grexit but a royal shafting and the best part…NOW, the negotiations will begin! Like all this time they were sitting around knitting?

    Kolly I think you need to trade your kilt for lederhosen and a funny hat. There is definitely some Schauble in those genes. 😀

  • #195280

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Ooh I hope not ,Kiwi! Mind you lederhosen under a kilt might fend off the midges a bit…..then maybe not! They get everywhere! Plenty of funny hats here already 😆

    You misread me Kiwi, I am not a supporter of the German politicians but the practicalities of the situation are that they have the biggest exposure to Greece, are effectively the main leaders of the Eurozone and they also are democratically elected and must answer to their people and there is a lot of worry there about throwing good money after bad. Several ‘ands’ there giving them much cause to take a realistic rather than emotional approach.

    So a deal done………nearly. A bit of a fudge, still waits for parliamentary approval by nations and legal implementations in Greece ( as if that means anything!) but potentially done by Wednesday staving off the worsening situation at least for a while.

    I just wonder what will happen when those most affected realise that the further austerity hits them hard such as all the workers involved in the organisations to be privatised………..wasn’t that supposed to have happened under the previous agreement? Demos and strikes to look forward to? Episode X of the Greek tragedy draws to a close, don’t leave, it will be just a short intermission……

  • #195281

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    I would not be at all surprised if this turns ugly in Greece. The worst part of the agreement is signing over Greek assets. That is a red rag to most Greeks. The most dangerous people are those with nothing to lose. Inside me is a wee hope for a huge about turn. A Trojan Horse of sorts.

    I disagree with your opinion Kolly, and most are refuted by much smarter people than us. We are opinionated nobodys in the grand scheme and can but sit and watch the theater unfold.

  • #195282

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Again…. my question stands….. has Mr Tsips achieved anything different to what the previous government were looking to accept and what was the point of the referendum?

    I’m not sure how Tsips can look his people in the eye after he’s so totally pulled back from all he said and all he stood for and all he promised?
    I’ll be amazed if he is able to continue as PM, as the people will be looking to string him up now!

    Anyway, this will only give a few months breathing space and then the drama will develop into another Greek Tragedy over again………

  • #195283

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    My own feelings are that he has really brought it home that serious changes must be made and made now. Whether the Parliament agrees is another matter. That the money men are behind this is obvious as that bizarre clause about Sunday trading shows. France has had a long debate over this and it has only just passed. Maybe the Germans are not selling enough.
    I sit and watch with interest.

  • #195284

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    On I missed that, what was it about Sunday trading?

  • #195285

    brenda
    Participant
    Hoplite

    @kolofarthos wrote:

    On I missed that, what was it about Sunday trading?

    I missed it, too…and a search hasn’t helped me find it.

  • #195286

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Hello Brenda, what is the general opinion of people (well those who know what Greece and Europe is – probably not those to the South of you 😉 ) about the shenanigans over this side of the pond? It was good to get new input from Suzi and I for one would welcome some from you too!

  • #195287

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    One of the conditions is to relax the law on Sunday trading. I have read it on the T & C of the stitch-up oops agreement.

  • #195288

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Ah! Well relaxing the law should be easy enough 😮

  • #195289

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Here is an outline of the agreement, (taken from Fileleftheros) though Greece will need to pass these into law quickly before it can get any new loans and I think that is where the stumbling block may be as although all these are what Greece has needed to do for a years and never had the guts to see through, having to suddenly do these all in one go, may be the tough part of this agreement for the Greeks!
    Also, the statement from the summit of euro leaders says these “minimum requirements” do not guarantee a successful result for the bailout negotiations.

    Here is a look at what Greece must do:

    – Request continued support from the International Monetary Fund after its current IMF program expires in early 2016.

    – Streamline consumer tax and broaden the tax base to increase revenue. Laws on this are due by Wednesday.

    – Multiple reforms to the pension system to make it financially viable. Initial reforms are due by Wednesday, others by October.

    – Safeguard the independence of the country’s statistics agency.

    – Introduce laws by Wednesday that would ensure “quasi-automatic spending cuts” if the government misses its budget surplus targets.

    – Overhaul the civil justice system by July 22 to make it more efficient and reduce costs.

    – Carry out product market reforms that include allowing stores to open on Sundays, broadening sales periods, opening up pharmacy ownership, reforming the bakeries and milk market and opening up closed and protected professions, including ferry transport.

    – Privatise the electricity transmission network operator unless alternative measures with the same effect can be found.

    – Overhaul the labor market. This includes reviewing collective bargaining, industrial action and collective dismissal regulations.

    – Tackle banks’ non-performing loans and strengthen bank governance.

    – Significantly increase the privatization program, transferring 50 billion euros worth of Greek assets to an independent fund, based in Greece, to carry out the privatizations.

    – Modernise, strengthen and reduce the costs of Greek administration, with a first proposal to be provided by July 20.

    – Allow members of the three institutions overseeing Greeces reforms – the European Central Bank, IMF and European Commission, previously known as the ‘troika” – to return to Athens. The government must consult with the institutions on all relevant draft legislation before submitting it to public consultation or to parliament.

    – Re-examine, with a view to amend, legislation passed in the last six months that is deemed to have backtracked on previous bailout commitments.

  • #195290

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Hahaha. Are they kidding? How is it possible to do even one of these things within July. Do they think Greece runs on computers like Germany and can just press a couple of buttons and presto everything changes.

    Some of the reforms are so necessary and should already have been done. They have been on the table for years and were already planned to be changed when Varoufakis was Fin Min.

  • #195291

    brenda
    Participant
    Hoplite

    @kolofarthos wrote:

    Hello Brenda, what is the general opinion of people (well those who know what Greece and Europe is – probably not those to the South of you 😉 ) about the shenanigans over this side of the pond? It was good to get new input from Suzi and I for one would welcome some from you too!

    I don’t go out of my way to bring up the subject because I know that the majority know only what they hear “on the 6 o’clock news” or read in the headlines. Greece is “just a place where Brenda goes to spend a few weeks at her house there every year. The family who owns that restaurant we like…aren’t they Greek? And, oh yeah…the country is overspending and can’t pay its bills.” They know nothing of the years and years of government corruption that came before all of this. If it looks like I’m starting to explain things (as much as anyone can) their eyes glaze over. There are a few people who DO have an understanding of the history of the country, and a knowledge of the European Union and what’s going on now, and they feel Greece is really getting a bad deal. My lifelong best friend is married to a Greek who has been here for 57 yrs. and has never gone back for a visit. They think Tsipras should have thumbed his nose at the Union and chosen a Grexit. In my heart, that’s what I secretly would like to see…but I can’t bear the thought of how hard that would be for my in-laws. But, what they’re facing now is equally difficult. My family over there are farmers, but they also have a Kafenion in the village as well as a small variety/grocery store in the city. They range in age from 75 to 1 ½ years. I haven’t called them recently because I know they’ll just tell me they’re fine. On August 8 I’ll be there to see for myself how it is, both in the village and in the city. I contacted my niece via facebook and she said “είναι χάλια, Θεια.” I’ll be going over with a bag full of Euro’s because my money over there is in the bank and not under my mattress. I have to look into my crystal ball and see the best time to buy those Euros. And because the family is proud and will not accept money from me, I have to come up with a way to help them a little bit. And, please, let’s all pray there’s no airport strike on Aug. 8 and Aug.30.

  • #195292

    Ian
    Participant
    Homeric

    I’d seen those and I figured some of them were the quintesence of muli-interpretable vagueness. :roll:

    – Streamline consumer tax and broaden the tax base to increase revenue
    – Multiple reforms to the pension system to make it financially viable.
    – Tackle banks’ non-performing loans.

    Could mean anything?
    What parts of society will they target? The low fruit yet again?

    :roll:

  • #195293

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    I agree with you brenda. Everyone believes the media. Take for example the headline that Tsakalotos walked into the meetings with only a hotel pad. How ridiculous that all the sheeple would accept this as true or remotely possible when you see him on TV walking in with a trolley bag and his assistant with another trolley bag. I’m sure the trolley bag didn’t contain a packed lunch from his grandmother! Just reading Varoufakis interview in New Statesman that Joe provided, you could see what was really going on in those meetings. Clear punishment for daring to be democratic. One is only allowed democracy when the U.S. needs oil and demolishes an entire country to force their version on them.

    I also agree with the feeling of wishing Tsipras would have walked, which he did according to sources, but was brought back to finish being blackmailed. I think everyone’s dreaming and wishing they will have a secret ace up their sleeve and are just buying time. Certainly that’s what I would wish. I guess one could say it ain’t over till the fat lady sings. Greece is volatile.

    As for your family. Take the euros with you and shop there,. Grocery shopping NOT LIDL…
    I used to buy small appliances in Greece for people. Actually there is not much that you can take to Greece that is cheaper elsewhere. The laiki markets have everything you can imagine at silly prices. Or if you want to help the old ones, you could tell them that your a magic foreign card can withdraw money, so you will give them that and they can pay you back later when things improve…never of course.

    Certainly there is a good chance there could be strikes when you go. People are not happy. Try to enjoy it though that’s difficult when you watch others suffering. We are still toying whether to go for a quick trip between hospital visits, but also feel it will be emotionally draining under these circumstances. My daughter and family will go to Crete next week. Nice to see some comment from you.

  • #195294

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    http://asset.tovima.gr/vimawebstatic//C0B0500997A39E7D6FDE92C452CA8DD3.jpg

    So Herr Osborne, you think your safe because your not in the Euro ? Ha ha ha ha.

    OR

    No Mr Osborne, I don’t want you to die, I want you to PAY. (Apologies to James Bond)

  • #195295

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Did nobody tell you Mr Bond is fictional , jo?

    Thanks Brenda. Good to get another perspective.

    I still feel it’s all on a knife edge!

  • #195296

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    Ha, next thing you’ll be telling me that there is no such thing as Father Christmas.

  • #195297

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    There’s not? 😳 :angry: 😥

  • #195298

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    Who the hell has been stealing my sherry and mince pies ? 😈

  • #195299

    Bandit
    Participant
    Neophyte

    What’s the difference between the Mafia and the current European leadership? The Mafia makes you an offer you can’t refuse. The leaders of the European Union offer you a deal you can neither refuse nor accept without destroying yourself.
    The European Union as we have known it ended over the weekend. That EU project was all about the gradual convergence of equal nations into an “ever closer union”. That’s finished now.
    The whole notion was underpinned by three conditions. One was that the process of European integration was consensual – each member state would pool more and more of its sovereignty because it freely chose to do so. The second was that these incremental steps were, to use the terms applied to monetary union in the Maastricht treaty, “irreversible” and “irrevocable” – once they were taken, there could be no going back.

    A deal for Greece that is savage but outcome was necessary for Europe in throes of a profound crisis
    Greek ATMs are running low on cash – the ECB said it would maintain its current level of emergency support but not provide additional funds. Photograph: Christian Hartmann/Reuters Three key factors in Greece’s bailout deal
    A woman burns the flag of the ruling party Syriza in front of the Greek parliament in Athens. Photograph: Louisa Gouliamaki/AFP/Getty ImagesSyriza activists struggle to accept terms Tsipras has signed up to
    Pensioners are given priority tickets as they wait to receive part of their pensions in Athens, Greece yesterday. REUTERS/Yiannis Kourtoglou Syriza party members describe new deal as ‘humiliating’
    Anti-austerity protesters demonstrate in front of the Greek parliament in Athens on Monday. Prime minister Alexis Tsipras returned from Brussels to a gathering storm at home. Photograph: Orestis Panagiotou/EPAWeary Tsipras fights to avert rebellion as key votes loom
    ‘Flamby’ no more: France’s president, Francois Hollande, in Brussels on Monday. Photograph: Ian Langdson/EPAA rare triumph as François Hollande gets credit for holding Europe together
    Head of the eurogroup Jeroen Dijsselbloem: “A lot of trust had been lost . . . it has to be rebuilt.” Photograph: Thierry Charlier/AFP/Getty ImagesGreek bailout may take four weeks to negotiate
    Protesting outside the Greek parliament against agreement for a third bailout with euro zone leaders. Photograph: Getty ImagesGreece crisis: Tsipras faces rebellion within coalition
    Greece crisis: Full coverage
    The third, unspoken but completely understood, was that Germany would restrain itself, accepting, in return for the immense gift of a new beginning that its fellow European countries had given it, that it must refrain from ever trying to be top dog again. Each of these fundamental conditions was torched over the weekend.
    ‘Mental waterboarding’
    Firstly, Greece’s sovereignty is no longer pooled – it has been surrendered after what EU officials gleefully called “mental waterboarding”.
    By closing the Greek banks, threatening Greek voters and countering the Greek government’s surrender with terms designed to be utterly humiliating, the EU and euro zone leadership finished off the notion of consent. All the waffle about solidarity and respect has been exploded and we are left with an EU based on six little letters: or else.
    A new idea has been shoved into the foundations of the EU – the idea that a member state can and will be brought to heel. And brought to heel, not quietly or subtly, but openly and ritually in a Theatre of Cruelty designed for that sole purpose.
    The whole idea of making flagrantly provocative demands – the initial insistence that €50 billion of Greek public assets be placed in a fund in Luxembourg being the most spectacular – was to demonstrate, not just to Greece but to all member states, that the EU is now a coercive institution.
    And as a coercive institution it has moved into a state of profound division. There is no deeper divide than that between those who are punished and those who do the punishing, between those who are brought to heel and those who shout “Heel!”
    Revenge-fuelled madness
    As if this seismic shift were not enough in itself, the euro zone leaders managed at the same moment to destroy the second underlying assumption of the European project. In a mood of revenge-fuelled madness, they formally put on the table Wolfgang Schäuble’s pet formulation of a “temporary” Greek exit from the euro, thus casually tearing up the Maastricht treaty.
    In the long term it matters less that this threat was not carried out than that it was made and deemed acceptable. Once that happened, all the irreversibles of the European project became reversible; all the irrevocables became revocable.
    From here on, every step the EU takes is contingent and provisional. Angela Merkel boasted that Plan B proved unnecessary – but now every European Plan A has an implied Plan B. The official EU has become the provisional EU.
    German restraint
    The third condition was Germany’s self-restraint. In 2012, the former German chancellor Helmut Schmidt warned that the EU would be “crippled” if “we Germans allow ourselves to be seduced into claiming a political leading role in Europe or at least playing first among equals”.
    Many of Germany’s leading thinkers, from Günter Grass to Jürgen Habermas, have issued similar warnings. It is not accidental that these warnings came from men old enough to remember Nazism and their country’s physical and moral post-war devastation.
    The generation now in power in Germany seems to have forgotten everything. It is now not even a case of being “first among equals” – Germany is first in a new Europe of unequals.
    And all for what? Why has the European Union been so radically redefined? Not for the sake of the Greek people, of course. No sane person believes that austerity and asset-stripping are the recipe for Greek recovery.
    For international financial discipline, then, to prove that all debts must be paid? Hardly – consider that in March the IMF, with almost no fuss, announced a financial package for a European country that is far more corrupt, unstable and oligarchic than Greece.
    Ukraine write-offs
    Ukraine got €36.1 billion in assistance from the IMF, including write-offs of previous IMF loans worth between €13.5 billion and €18 billion. There is little chance of any of this money ever being paid back. And yet Angela Merkel and the other EU hardliners had no problem with any of this.
    Why? It’s the politics stupid. Pouring money into corrupt and oligarchic Ukraine was about sending a political message. And tormenting Greece is also about sending a political message.
    The message is that we are in a new EU now, one that has a dominant power at its centre and a single acceptable ideology. Those who founded it believed that such a union could not survive. The current leadership apparently knows better.

  • #195300

    Shazzie
    Participant
    Oracle

    All I can think is that the past few weeks have been completely pointless.
    For those Trekkies amongst us, the EU is just like the Borg – RESISTANCE IS FUTILE !!

    You’re spot on Kiwi – shop local at the markets and especially avoid LIDL now – surely Germany has taken enough out of Greece already 😡 😡

  • #195301

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    Don’ forget Aldi as well.
    Oh and the EZ is trying to get the rest of the EU to do some funding, even though it is specifically against their rules ?

  • #195302

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Bandit…. I didn’t know you were so good at copying and pasting mate! :mrgreen:
    Please can you copy and paste shorter sections in future as I glazed over and gave up the will to live by the end of the first paragraph! But as you’re a mate, let me just say that although I never read most of it, I agree with you! :mrgreen:

  • #195303

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Bandit. Good to see you back. Just keep posting. It’s great to see many perspectives. reb_bravo

    I think that Greece gained a lot of sympathy this round. Germany has been discredited and people reminded of its dirty past. Maybe Germany shot it’s own foot this time, because as I can tell from emails being sent to me personally from friends world wide, they all pretty much said #!%<}## you Germany. All said they would no longer buy German goods. I hope this sentiment travels fast globally.

  • #195304

    Alien
    Participant
    Oracle

    Will no longer buy German goods?

    Untill they need a new car :mrgreen:

  • #195305

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Agree alien, it’s a real bummer, mine is German. 😳 Am thinking of daubing it in blue and white paint to camouflage it.

  • #195306

    Ian
    Participant
    Homeric

    @kiwi wrote:

    Bandit. Good to see you back. Just keep posting. It’s great to see many perspectives. reb_bravo

    I think that Greece gained a lot of sympathy this round. Germany has been discredited and people reminded of its dirty past. Maybe Germany shot it’s own foot this time, because as I can tell from emails being sent to me personally from friends world wide, they all pretty much said #!%<}## you Germany. All said they would no longer buy German goods. I hope this sentiment travels fast globally.

    Call me cynical but I think that that resolve may last about a month. :( Tops. 😐

  • #195307

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Probably correct there Ian. People forget fast and it all lasts until the next big headline hits and a new crisis somewhere to pore over.

  • #195308

    sundodger
    Participant
    Homeric

    They have pressure washers on sale at Lidl next week, if anyone is interested :)) Wota load of tosh ! Of course people will still buy German – Unless of course Greece still “crashes out”. In which case, Greeks won’t be able to afford the hyper inflated cost. They obviously didn’t have that bacon sarnie after all…They were warned ! Perhaps it’s time for all the armchair political analysts , to consider the same proposal? :mrgreen:

  • #195309

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    So you’re back sundodge. Is it because of a bout of sunburn or to referee the fights here :) The minute I see you I swear I can smell bacon.

    Haven’t you heard that the Eurogroup always check out GIH before all meetings so they know what to do next. We are closely watched by them so don’t knock our armchair experts. 😀

  • #195310

    sundodger
    Participant
    Homeric

    Aye – I’m back from Blighty ! Fully refreshed, having sampled all the culinary delights that North Staffordshire & the Cheshire borders had to offer. The car is fully repaired, the accident is now a near forgotten, distant memory & I am returned with, gasp…One of these previously dreaded tablet computer things ! A belated Crimbo pressies from the kids, turned into an iPad Air! Hey – I can talk to this thing & it answers back…

  • #195311

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    I thought that’s what a wife is for. :)

  • #195312

    Ian
    Participant
    Homeric

    @jodevizes wrote:

    I thought that’s what a wife is for. :)

    No, wives talk to you and you’re not supposed to talk back… 😈

  • #195313

    sundodger
    Participant
    Homeric

    … I get more sense out of this tablet ! :))

  • #195314

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle
  • #195315

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @jodevizes wrote:

    This is John Pilgers’ take on it. The old lefty :)

    http://off-guardian.org/2015/07/15/the-problem-of-greece-is-not-only-a-tragedy-it-is-a-lie/

    NO! NO! NO!… it’s the end of my life as I know it!
    First I find myself actually reading the Guardian…. secondly I find myself agreeing with it…. and then I find it’s John Pilger I’m agreeing with!….. 😯 😯 😯
    I’m doomed, doomed… DOOMED I tell you! I may never recover! 😳 😳 ic_shock ic_shock

  • #195316

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Crikey, thought you must be walking back to Greece Sunnyboy! :))
    Welcome home, well your home 😕

    p.s. I took your advice and had a bacon sarny………and I feel great!

  • #195317

    The Grocer
    Participant
    Oracle

    @Alien wrote:

    Will no longer buy German goods?

    Untill they need a new car :mrgreen:

    I think many people need to consider the overall investment Germany make in Greece…

    German investments in Greece (in million Euros)
    2009 2010 2011 2012
    Direct and Indirect investments 3.934 3.501 3.224 3.175
    Number of companies 156 165 151 143
    Personnel (in thousands) 39 35 33 32
    Annual turnover (in billion euros) 10,6 9,0 8,2 7,6

    headGermany in Greece.jpg[/attachment:34kdzxiz]

    Yes it is currently popular to knock Germany over the euro loan situation but we must remember it is Greece that went to the EU / IMF etc for the loans, they were not forced on Greece.
    When you have a personal loan from your bank you agree a set rate of interest before you sign up. If you don’t pay the bailiffs come in….

    I do empathise with the average Greek villager, I see the hardships but just like you can not blame all the Greek people for the current situation you can not also blame all the Germans!

  • #195318

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Another thing we must remember is that when Greece borrowed money, Germany profited by 380 million euros. They don’t give it to Greece with a lollipop attached, they profit from it, as does the IMF and all the other countries that lend.

    The terms of the loan are such that Germany also profits even more by buying the cut rate Greek assets they demand be put on the table and by insisting on abolishing collective bargaining in the workplace. The deal is profitable to Germany, not Greece.

    Does anyone believe that a German company invests in Greece out of kindness? They are hard nosed profit driven and that’s why they are investing in Greece. They move in circles that paupers starting a business don’t have access to. A lot of oily palms ensure that no taxes are paid and you can bet the profits don’t stay in Greece…Germany benefits from them.

  • #195319

    The Grocer
    Participant
    Oracle

    Kiwi,
    Of course the “deal” is profitable to Germany, why else do companies invest & trade? As I said previously the banks also will make a profit from money lending, that’s their business. The point I make is that Germany is the highest investor in Greece, they need not invest….

    Greece needs investment…development of commerce etc. Greece is not doing this for it’s people, and ANY international company that creates work in Greece for the people must be welcomed. Yes, tax breaks may be necessary to encourage, exactly what the UK PM is doing and the UK’s GDP grew more than most European countries last year.

    Most of the railway in Greece is closed down, would the 1000’s who lost jobs mind if a German company opened the railways again and created jobs?……I bet there would be queues at the job centres.

    Members of the public who state “I’m not buying German”, should also think just how many jobs are created by those very same German companies in Greece…..do they really think if all foreign companies exited Greece Greek companies would take over and thrive ?

    It does sound I am very pro German, truthfully I am not yet I have no animosity against Germans or German businesses. I believe in work hard / play hard cultures. Oh yes and paying your debts!

  • #195320

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    ….and I would add sticking to contract terms unless bothe sides renegotiate and agree!

    To me it seems some are just against a capitalist system. It does have many failings, true, but if you are in it you have to accept some make a profit…..many wish they could make a profit!

    If people or just the Greeks feel so agrieved that they wish to boycott German goods, accept that you might in some circumstances not but best value, further annoy the German public, start making your own goods etc. I’ll not repeat Grocers other comments but do agree. In fact one of the best places to buy a variety of Greek goods in my locality is in LIDL and ALDI so perhaps I should boycott those……?

  • #195321

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Actually I replied earlier to grocers comment, but my post must have been wiped because I close the page too fast after posting.

    When I was in Thess, Leroy Merlin opened. At the time I was looking for floor coating for the apartment. I went to Leroy because I imagined that such places would sell it. it was around 38-45 euros. I needed quite a bit so also decided to look around the neighborhood hardware shops. I found a Greek product that cost 9 euros for a can half the size. So 18 euros for the same size as Leroy. Since the house was a rental, I wasnt too worried about the quality. Perfect product, lasted until I left with not a mark on it, and I actually rang the manufacturer for some advice on application and they were most helpful. After that, I also bought locally made paint. Perfect. Meanwhile, those little shops have closed down. Speaking to the owners they said that competition from the big foreign shops was too much for them. The particular shop had been there for two generations.

    The foreign businesses invested in Greece take their profits out of Greece and import products. Most pay nominal tax far below Greek businesses, or no tax as in the airport to name one, therefore why should I support them and not support local suppliers and manufacturers and help the struggling Greeks rather than some foreign conglomerate.

    When I am in London the TV flashes BUy British Made… And here is the reason why, and the exact same reasons apply to Greece, even more so now http://www.buybritish.com/why-buy-british

    As it happens, when I am in Greece, I never buy soft drinks from Coca Cola for the same reason, I will walk a mile to buy the Greek equivalent, which in Thess was Epsa. It’s this same philosophy which makes me buy some things from the corner store where the owner and his family work hard, costing me a little more, but knowing that in supporting that store it will be there when I need it. It’s shopping with a conscience and not just a price.

    As for the comment that not buying German goods would further annoy the German public…GASP! are you serious?

    It amuses me when people passionately support capitalism while struggling on a low or middle income. Do they imagine that the wealth trickles down to them and by some magic proxy puts them at the same level as the top 10% who are profiting from them.

  • #195322

    Alien
    Participant
    Oracle

    As for the comment that not buying German goods would further annoy the German public…GASP! are you serious?

    Yes, very serious.
    When tourism is so important for Greece and realise how many Germans spend their holidays in Greece, it could be a trigger not to go this year.

    I think it was 1997 or 1998 we planned our first visit to Greece, just before we booked the Greeks banned Dutch produce. For me that was a reason not to go.

    Must admit that we hadn’t booked yet, so it didn’t cost us extra to change plans :)

  • #195323

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    I drink Fix when I am there. Re not buying German, the other night some news presenter on the BBC was plugging the BBC News app (Get depressed by world news where ever you are) and as he scrolled to show you how easy it was, the huge logo for Boycott Germans Goods came up. :)

  • #195324

    Stella
    Participant
    Hoplite

    Friends were shopping in Lidl the other day, very surprised to find it almost empty of customers and also of staff. After they had completed their shopping, the store was actually closed and the remaining staff sent home. If this continues the employees of whom the majority are I suppose Greek, will lose their jobs. How does this help the local economy?

  • #195325

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    I’m all for supporting small business provided the value is comparable (not necessarily cost) and the service is good. Use them or loose them is quite true. My local shops, some I would not wish to loose and I shop there and they often compare favourably with the big boys. In your case it seems to be painting a picture( ic_wink ) of use them and loose them.
    However that is not your original argument. Boycott based upon nationality of the owners.

    Excellent point by Alien especially as Greek tourism forms such a major amount of GDP and brings in much needed money into the country. I was more thinking on the likelihood of support for any deal from the German public, their democratic right to object and the probable effect on their parliament’s vote.

  • #195326

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    I don’t think Greeks are against German people.i was rather touched by the reporting of a German couple in Crete who wrote ‘we apologise for our government’ on the back of their invoice. Of course it is sad if the Greeks in the German shops might lose their jobs, but, this crisis has made thousands lose their jobs and livelihoods through no fault of their own. Shouldn’t we feel equally sorry for them too.

    The Boycott Germany movement was not started by a Greek, it got worldwide support and has served to make the Germans think what their methods are doing to their reputation everywhere. You can’t just look at this from a narrow point of view within Greece.

    In 1953 Greece and other countries rallied to help a bankrupt Germany and forgave their debt…some reciprocal generosity, or if not that, at least some softening on a failed recipe could have made all the difference now instead of hardening the stance.

    And for all those that take the moral view and tut tut the Greeks…

    Excerp from Mathew D Rose a Berlin journalist that often writes on the Naked Capitialism website.

    …This is of little surprise, as Germany’s Finance Minister, Wolfgang Schäuble, who has been the driving force in Germany’s punitive campaign against Greece, was caught out in 1999 accepting envelopes full of cash from a weapons dealer, something he persistently lied about. As Germany had de facto no laws against corruption, there were no consequences and he simply carried on in politics. Schäuble is just another example of the endemic corruption of the political class in Europe.

    http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/01/hope-for-greece-and-perhaps-for-europe-too.html

  • #195327

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    Some more reading material on what went on behind closed doors.
    https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/07/tsipras-varoufakis-kouvelakis-syriza-euro-debt/

  • #195328

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    I can’t help getting irritated when I read people calling one another comrade. It harks back to the days of the Cold War and an ideology that is outdated and too radical and impossible to impose in these modern times.
    There is a lot of talk about elections in the Autumn. Let’s see if Tsipras continues to achieve support by the people. Unfortunately his margin for making changes has been all but crushed now not allowing him room to move in ways that could make a difference in Greece.

    I look at what the Social Democrats achieved in Sweden for many years. Swedes got a welfare system to surpass anywhere in the world and they managed to do it while retaining a good standard of living for everyone and a fair taxation system that created a relatively egalitarian society.

  • #195329

    Alien
    Participant
    Oracle

    For me Island did very well. More than very well.

  • #195330

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    :) I think you mean Ireland alien. So are you going to Greece this year?

  • #195331

    Ian
    Participant
    Homeric

    Or Iceland?

    They’re the one’s that jailed the banksters rather than let them have bonuses… :finger:

  • #195332

    the reiver
    Participant
    Oracle

    @Stella wrote:

    almost empty of customers and also of staff

    I was in the smaller Lidl on Friday and two checkouts were running, stock levels very high and no shortage of customers. OK it was 1pm so I don’t know what happens later in the day. I think Lidl runs a “last minute” restock
    programme, so they will always be fine for the weekend.

    What I did notice was that a lot of Greeks were buying a few items and paying by plastic ! Only deferring the debt.

    8)

  • #195333

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    Well, well, this is where some of the money went. http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703636404575352991108208712

  • #195334

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    I have copied this off a comments page so cannot verify but sounds about right.

    Goldman Sachs arranged a creative secret loan of 2.8 billion euros for Greece, disguised as an off-the-books “cross-currency swap”.

    — It a very complicated mathematical transaction (at least for those who actually looked into the derivative) in which Greece’s foreign-currency debt was converted into a domestic-currency obligation using a fictitious market exchange rate.

    As a result, about 2 percent of Greece’s debt magically disappeared from its national accounts.

    If you recall, Christoforos Sardelis, then head of Greece’s Public Debt Management Agency, later described the deal to Bloomberg Business as “a very sexy story between two sinners.”

    For its services, Goldman received 600 million euros ($793 million) from the Greek taxpayer.

  • #195335

    Alien
    Participant
    Oracle

    @Alien wrote:

    For me Island did very well. More than very well.

    Sorry, indeed I meant Iceland!
    Democraticly decided to nail the bankers reb_bravo
    In very short time paying off the debts the bankers left them with.

  • #195336

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Don’t apologise, most on here would not even attempt Dutch and some not even Greek!! (
    I speak for myself of course :)) )

  • #195337

    Ian
    Participant
    Homeric

    @kolofarthos wrote:

    Don’t apologise, most on here would not even attempt Dutch and some not even Greek!! (
    I speak for myself of course :)) )

    And just how are we supposed to visualise you as being “most on here”??? 😕

    Do we even want to? 😯 😯

    :mrgreen:

  • #195338

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @jodevizes wrote:

    I have copied this off a comments page so cannot verify but sounds about right.

    Goldman Sachs arranged a creative secret loan of 2.8 billion euros for Greece, disguised as an off-the-books “cross-currency swap”.

    — It a very complicated mathematical transaction (at least for those who actually looked into the derivative) in which Greece’s foreign-currency debt was converted into a domestic-currency obligation using a fictitious market exchange rate.

    As a result, about 2 percent of Greece’s debt magically disappeared from its national accounts.

    If you recall, Christoforos Sardelis, then head of Greece’s Public Debt Management Agency, later described the deal to Bloomberg Business as “a very sexy story between two sinners.”

    For its services, Goldman received 600 million euros ($793 million) from the Greek taxpayer.

    There was nothing really ‘hinkey’ about what GS did, as small and large companies do this sort of thing to improve their balance sheets all the time…. the classic being the ‘capitalisation’ of the director’s loan account which is shown as ‘short term debt’ on the balance sheet and is therefore seen as a liability, as the directors could therefore demand repayment of this ‘loan’ like any other creditor, even if they know that the money does not exist in reality anywhere but on the balance sheet! So by ‘capitalising’ the loan, it moves to a different part of the balance sheet and the short term debt ‘magically disappears’, so suddenly making the balance sheet look much better and opening up the company to qualify better for more loans, whereas before it didn’t qualify! 😯 Now, imagine that being done on a ‘country size’ scale and add to it that much of that debt, though it didn’t exist in any ‘liquid’ (cash) state, was on the books in foreign currencies! Imagine the fun one could have with that? Goldman Sachs only did what thousands of companies in the know do all the time and there is absoloutly nothing ‘illegal’ about it! 😕

  • #195339

    Ian
    Participant
    Homeric

    It not being illegal does not necessarily make it right… :

  • #195340

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    You were supposed to just visualize the “some”, Ian ic_confused
    ” want to”. most probably not :(

  • #195341

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    I am trying to “imagine”,KP, but struggling with only one brain cell :retard:

  • #195342

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @Ian wrote:

    It not being illegal does not necessarily make it right… :

    Now therein lays the problem Ian!
    Where is the line which is drawn?
    If the law allows something, then who decides where the line must be drawn for those things which some may say are ‘unethical’, ‘immoral’ or fattening? :roll: Okay, forget the ‘fattening’…

    Can we therefore have billions of the world’s population just deciding by some arbitrary code, based on each person’s ‘feelings’ what is or isn’t acceptable? 😕
    Or do we allow it to enter the realms of chaos theory and all become some types of Henri Poincaré or Birkoff and come up with our own fractional dimension theories for ethics and morality?
    At the moment, although there are still fixed laws, it seems that the 21st century way seems to have become that everything is decided according to some chaotic mass public hysteria, often generated by, or at the very least sustained by the media and no matter what the law states, the likes of Starbucks and Amazon are forced to begin voluntarily paying taxes they’re not liable for according to law, rather than the government doing the right thing and creating a level playing field for all companies, by changing the law! 😯 A totally bizarre way to run countries!

    This subject is beginning to cross into the realms of ‘philosophy’….. I think I’m coming over all ‘Aristotle’ or something! :mrgreen:

  • #195343

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    Now there’s a facinating thing…. In the posting I just posted in response to Ian, I attempted to write ‘Star-bucks’ and ‘Amazon’, but whenever I entered the coffee place, the system kept changing the name to ‘Famous Overpriced Coffee Conglomorate’ and will not allow me to write the name (which is why I’ve put a ‘hyphen’ in the name)! 😯
    Now, one wonders who programmed this board to disallow the writing of a legitimate coffee shop business!
    This is another way the 21st century is allowing each person, individuals, to set their own indiscriminate censorship, according to their own feelings or prejudice! 😕

    Personally, although I find this funny, I do also find it alarming and worry about where all this can end and the ensuing chaos it can bring! :(

  • #195344

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    In that case, I can tell my bank that I have moved my overdraft to a different place on my accounts so they can whistle for the money :)

    600 million was quite a pay check though. Could any of it find its way back to somebodys’ wallet ?

  • #195345

    Alien
    Participant
    Oracle

    I always find it amusing that in Greece one speaks of ‘we must pay tax’ and in NL one speaks of ‘we may pay taxes’. As if we should be happy we can pay :roll: Mind you the fines when you don’t are shocking :unibrow:

    KP: maybe Starbucks wouldn’t give our webmaster a discount on his coffee?

  • #195346

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Starbucks, Starbucks, Starbucks ( there are other overpriced sellers too…. ic_wink )

  • #195347

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    Hmmm, see what you mean, KP ic_shock

    Reminds me of how overpriced they are by comparison £10 for three watery concoctions was the first one and only price I paid at said star-bucks. Comparing £3 for two excellent and large fresh bean beverages in Yiamas in Dumfries, and just €1.50 for a good real in country Ellenico just puts it all in perspective!

    Costa fortune at some places!

  • #195348

    Ian
    Participant
    Homeric

    @Alien wrote:

    I always find it amusing that in Greece one speaks of ‘we must pay tax’ and in NL one speaks of ‘we may pay taxes’. As if we should be happy we can pay :roll: Mind you the fines when you don’t are shocking :unibrow:

    KP: maybe Famous Overpriced Coffee Conglomorate wouldn’t give our webmaster a discount on his coffee?

    A fine is a tax for doing wrong, a tax is a fine for doing well…

    😐

  • #195349

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    @jodevizes wrote:

    In that case, I can tell my bank that I have moved my overdraft to a different place on my accounts so they can whistle for the money :)

    600 million was quite a pay check though. Could any of it find its way back to somebodys’ wallet ?

    Doesn’t work quite like that jodevizes….. :mrgreen:
    Anyway, the 600 mill is a commission of some 21% of the total amount they recovered, which does seem quite high, but if we offer to do it on a pure commission basis with no payments apart from a percentage of any ‘recovered’ money, then it’s not unusual to take 20% to 25% of the successful recovery, though for such large amounts, it would generally be more around 10% to 20% max….. So does seem a bit at the top end, especially as I can’t imagine that they did it on a pure commission basis!

  • #195350

    sundodger
    Participant
    Homeric

    …Probably many have seen this before – But for any that haven’t –

    > It is a slow day in a little Greek Village. The rain is beating down
    > and the streets are deserted.
    >
    > Times are tough, everybody is in debt, and everybody lives on credit.
    >
    > On this particular day a rich German tourist is driving through the
    > village, stops at the local hotel and lays a €100 note on the desk,
    > telling the hotel owner he wants to inspect the rooms upstairs in
    > order to pick one to spend the night.
    >
    > The owner gives him some keys and, as soon as the visitor has walked
    > upstairs, the hotelier grabs the €100 note and runs next door to pay
    > his debt to the butcher.
    >
    > The butcher takes the €100 note and runs down the street to repay
    > his debt to the pig farmer.
    >
    > The pig farmer takes the €100 note and heads off to pay his bill at
    > the supplier of feed and fuel.
    >
    > The guy at the Farmers’ Co-op takes the €100 note and runs to pay
    > his drinks bill at the taverna.
    >
    > The publican slips the money along to the local prostitute drinking
    > at the bar, who has also been facing hard times and has had to offer
    > him “services” on credit.
    >
    > The hooker then rushes to the hotel and pays off her room bill to
    > the hotel owner with the €100 note.
    >
    > The hotel proprietor then places the €100 note back on the counter
    > so the rich traveller will not suspect anything.
    >
    > At that moment the traveller comes down the stairs, picks up the
    > €100 note, states that the rooms are not satisfactory, pockets the
    > money, and leaves town.
    >
    >
    > No one produced anything, No one earned anything.
    >
    >
    > However, the whole village is now out of debt and looking to the
    > future with a lot more optimism.
    >
    >
    > And that is how the bailout package works!
    >

  • #195351

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    Banks Open sort of. Here are some of the rules

    Here’s some highlights:

    Cashing-in of checks or payments via letters of guarantees are allowed only if the money is credited in a bank account.
    Withdrawals from credit or prepaid cards in Greece or abroad are forbidden.
    Money transfers abroad are forbidden including use of credit, prepaid or debit cards for cross country payments.
    The use of credit or debit cards abroad is allowed only for goods or services purchases without cash and up to the limit set by each bank.
    New sight or savings accounts cannot be opened, while dormant accounts cannot be reactivated.
    Early, partial or full loan repayment is forbidden except repayment via cash or money transfer from abroad.
    Early, partial or full termination of a time deposit is forbidden unless the amount of the early partial termination is used for payment of tax, social security or bank loan obligations, payroll payment within the same bank, payment of hospital or educational expenses.

    I am about to go to Athens to open a bank account and get my forms but am puzzled, what is a ‘sight’ account?

  • #195352

    sundodger
    Participant
    Homeric

    Probably a current account ?

  • #195353

    Ian
    Participant
    Homeric

    @jodevizes wrote:

    I am about to go to Athens to open a bank account and get my forms but am puzzled, what is a ‘sight’ account?

    Haven’t got a clue… 😕 😕

    An account where you can only look at your money but not touch it? :)

  • #195354

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    I understood that new accounts cannot be opened. A ‘phone call or email to the bank might save you a wasted journey?

    Let’s hope my reading of the new rules is incorrect and you can proceed with your transactions without problems.

  • #195355

    kiwi
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    I heard today that if going overseas you can take five thousand euros. Seems a bit strange because then it would be worth saying you are going overseas just to get 5 k out via Ryan air cheap fare.

  • #195356

    jodevizes
    Participant
    Oracle

    Too late, flight booked. I guess I can get all the other stuff done. Now sewing pockets into underware for the euros. Didn’t think that when banks opened they wouldn’t allow new accounts, thought they were looking for new deposits.
    Saw this amongst the comments on Guardian site so do not know if true

    Will you be reporting on Syriza MP and ex-minister Nadia Valavani who had her mother withdraw EUR 200,000 the day before capital controls were introduced? I wonder if the Valavani family will do their patriotic duty.
    What you can do when you are in the know, wonder how many friends piled in as well.

  • #195357

    kolofarthos
    Participant
    Homeric

    So much for the new broom…… :finger:

    …if true of course, but if it’s in the media it must be …..a ‘mistake’, I bet there will be no recollection of the withdrawal or it was planned for years……. ic_wink

    Will not be true until it’s on the hedgeyourbets website…. :))

  • #204974

    KP
    Participant
    Aristotelic

    So much for the new broom…… :finger: …if true of course, but if it’s in the media it must be …..a ‘mistake’, I bet there will be no recollection of the withdrawal or it was planned for years……. ic_wink Will not be true until it’s on the hedgeyourbets website…. :))

    I feel better knowing that there’s an element of good old fashioned corruption even in Syriza!
    Things are already getting back to normal then! :good:

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